Movement

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by InoNinpo, Dec 23, 2010.

  1. InoNinpo

    InoNinpo Valued Member

    I've been watching some ninjutsu videos, many people comment how amazing Dr Kacem Zoughari's movement is, but why is it so different from Hatsumi's?

    Is there anyone that moves like Hatsumi I would like to see someone a little younger moving in a similar style.
     
  2. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    You're in for a disappointment.
     
  3. InoNinpo

    InoNinpo Valued Member

    Why?

    In another thread I was told the best way to learn was to find a good instructor and copy what he does..?
     
  4. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I believe that I move like Hatsumi, yet am much younger. I do not post videos on Youtube, however I studied at the feet of the master in Japan for many years, and I would be willing to come to your Country to conduct a seminar on the matter.
     
  5. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Best way to learn what?

    Hatsumi is an old guy and does what works for him. He didn't get to where he is from nothing.
     
  6. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    Here is just one example of a young guy who moves in a similar style to Hatsumi sensei:

    [ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81lR_yTHZwg"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81lR_yTHZwg[/ame]


    It is also an example of every reason you should not attempt to emulate or "copy" Hatsumi sensei.


    - Mark Spada
     
  7. InoNinpo

    InoNinpo Valued Member

    So then who should we emulate then? Kacem, to be fair it looks like him and Hatsumi are doing a different art.

    That Carbanaro moves like Hatsumi a bit I suppose, whats wrong with that.

    Must admit he does need a fancy jacket.
     
  8. jwills79

    jwills79 Valued Member

    I didn't say emulating good examples are wrong. You have to start somewhere. I said emulating these people shouldn't be your goal which is one source of some of the rampant problems in the Bujinkan.

    "Be intelligent despite your Education"
     
  9. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    There are two critical things you need to understand - first, Hatsumi gets away with what he does because he is who he is. Most (sensible) people realize that he has the ability to back up those admittedly "half-assed" movements due to his training background. I.e. if someone tries to test him for real - and people have done so many, many times - he can deal with it.
    The second fact is that a lot of the things he demonstrates are based upon the assumption that the opponent has some sense of self-preservation, i.e. they react to the pain and allow themselves to be controlled that way. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that one.
     
  10. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    When you say, "moves like Hatsumi" do you mean his general style of fighting or how he moves right now, in his elderly years?

    I find it a strange thought to want to move like someone else in a style that is so open-ended that it is virtually impossible to have two people move like each other
     
  11. InoNinpo

    InoNinpo Valued Member

    So people should take the basics, and create a movement style that works for them?

    Kacems and Carbanaro's movement looks completely different, carbanaro's much more like Hatsumi's surely the rest of the people should move like her does, I thought they were koryu (I've took this to mean that they are transmitted and practiced almost exactly like they were, correct me if i'm wrong)

    But if I'm honest Hatsumi's movement doesn't look all that realistic, his guard is down all the time for one.

    You guys would prob pick holes in his youtube vids if you didn't know who he was.
     
  12. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Perhaps it's possible that you are looking at certain things and as such do not recognize what is right in front of you?

    Strangely enough, the more I see Kacem move, the more I recognize Sôke's movement in his. Not to mention Ishizuka sensei's.

    But I do not see Sôke's movement in this video for example:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0uSElFrD5k"]YouTube - Bujinkan 2008 DKMS Review[/ame]
     
  13. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    You'll have to forgive the sarcasm in my previous post. The point I was making was that Carbonaro, like many others that could be mentioned and not surprisingly found on youtube, is just some kid from New Jersey who spent very little time training in these arts and yet makes every effort to come across as knowledgeable and experienced simply by copying the way that Hatsumi sensei moves. In your effort to find a decent teacher, you may be tempted to assume because of his rank and viral ubiquitousness that this guy or someone like him is a decent teacher.


    - Mark Spada
     
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Does Carbanaro move like Hatsumi Sensei or has he just adopted similar teaching mannerisms?

    As for the koryu comment.

    You're doing BBT not a koryu it's a significant distinction imo, not bad or anything just different.

    When doing BBT are you adopting the methodology and movement of the ryu-ha or BBT?


    Also koryu practioners are not carbon copies of eachother or those who have gone before.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  15. jwills79

    jwills79 Valued Member

    I say move like Hatsumi did when he was learning these arts not they way he is teaching these arts.

    The other Shihan did and most move quite well despite looking different.

    This is what I'm trying express to you.

    "Be intelligent despite your Education"
     
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Do we have to roll out shu ha ri again?
     
  17. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    You don't seem to grasp what people are telling you.

    That someone's movement "looks" like Hatsumi sensei's is NOT a good thing. Koryu is transmitted in such a way that the practitioner is expected to internalize the principles within the movement over a protracted period of time. This is the process that Hastumi sensei has followed. The same process that his student Ishizuka sensei has followed. The same process that people like Chris Carbonaro have not followed.

    If you don't adhere to this process of learning, then the way Hatsumi sensei or even Kacem Zoughari is moving will be completely lost on you to begin with. Which I suspect is why you are asking these questions and responding with your own ideas instead of attempting to discern the truth behind things.


    - Mark Spada
     
  18. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    I do not doubt that you think Carbonaro moves more like Hatsumi sensei. I am pretty sure that he himself thinks so as well.
     
  19. InoNinpo

    InoNinpo Valued Member

    And these Koryu movements were internalised by a child Takamatsu in 4 years?
     
  20. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    There was no Universal Declaration of Human Rights back then.
    Again, draw your own conclusions.
     

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