Mounting Trouble

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by flashlock, Apr 3, 2007.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Mid-mount is more for striking... high mount, however, is more for submissions. If you put your arm up and they have high mount on you, it is like giving them your arm to submit.
  2. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    Thanks, Rebel Wado. I appreciate your response. I don't think I'm being clear. I'm not suggesting putting your arms up, and I can definitely understand needing to protect your face and neck by keeping your arms in tight. Believe me, I understand how important that is.

    I'm asking how you can reverse mount without using your arms. Flashlock mentioned being punished with pushups if he didn't keep his arms in tight. In the context of the drill, if he was told not to use his arms, he had exactly zero chance of reversing that guys mount. I can understand needing to keep your arms in tight. I know the dangers of extending your arms up and asking to be armbarred. but without your arms, you can't shrimp effectively, nor can you hope to upa. At some point you need to use your arms to either drive a hip away or trap an arm. I'm obviously missing something important.
  3. fanatical

    fanatical Cool crow

    I think you're reading to much into "keeping your arms tight" Don't be a detail nazi!! :p When a guy is poking ribs to get out of mount, there are a lot of basics that need to be nugded in.
  4. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    Fair enough!

    I will say this. There are guys in my school with whom I'll still work on relaxing, working, and most importantly breathing from the bottom. I'll try and sweep or at least work from guard, but mostly it's me just trying to survive. There's one guy in particular who's a good 290 (100lbs up on me). Keeping my arms in helps me breathe, but it also protects me from literally popping a rib when he moves to side control or mount (god forbid).

    I didn't mean to make more of it than was intended. :)
  5. 1bad65

    1bad65 Valued Member

    If you get a high mount the arms have to come up, there is nowhere else for them to go!
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I will say this... if I'm on the bottom and I don't want to be there, I'm going to kick, claw, bite, elbow, jack, scratch like some wild animal at a million miles per hour before they get a good hold on me. Now 9 out of 10 times a good wrestler/grappler will end up taking my back but they won't get top mount on me. :p

    I may be giving horrible advice, but basically if you are in a disadvantaged position, speed things up... DON'T BE PASSIVE AND LET THEM GET A GOOD HOLD AND POSITION ON YOU.

    If the above fails and you do end up unable to avoid being in a disadvantaged position, then one of the most important things other than protecting yourself (which includes being able to breath), is to figure out how you are being immobilized. Then you have choices:

    1. break free what they have immobilized (what they are holding you down by)

    2. Or move what is not immobilized and use that to gain better position and attack

    3. Or move what is not immobilized and use that to break free that which is immobilized.

    Now TOP MOUNT is just the same as GUARD except turned upside down. The only difference is how you are being immobilized with the ground being a factor.

    If you were in guard instead of mount in the same position, how would you escape (pass the guard). Now turn that upside down and work it from being under top mount, see what adjustments need to be made.

    If you do this, you might better see how vulnerable you are to submissions, if they can do it to you from the guard, they can do it to you from the mount. Work it!!!
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2007
  7. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Instead of clawing, scratching biting, pushing, etc, learn 3 escapes and try them, one after the other, and try to flow from one escape to the next. It's like punching or anything else. Bridge left, bridge right, trap arm and leg and bridge right again, shrimp, bridge middle, etc . . . .

    That's what will get you out of a mount.
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    What you mean actually learn technique? But then I wouldn't waste energy and if I didn't waste energy so inefficiently, I would not be able to sell this as Cardio Crappling, the new weight loss program... better than Taebo because this is grappling, not striking. :Alien:

    seriously though, you know Yohan I agree with you... I was actually saying what I did because people get very used to training escapes when in fact, what they really need to work on primarily is not the escape (which is important) but in learning how to avoid getting in bad positions. Best mount escape is literally do not let them get mount on you.
  9. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Well, that is a questions of strategy or tactics moreso than technique. I personally can't argue with the tactics that other people train.
  10. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    I would take opposite approach. BJJ is like a game of chess. In chess you have to know how to make all the pieces move, the same thing for bjj. So I would suggest learning the mechanics of the uppa and the elbow escape. Then find somoone who is not as heavy as you and start with yourself being mounted. Get comfortable there with breathing and the wt on you. Then have him try submissions while you try to escape. If you get submitted or you escape then do it again. Often the oppening for the mount occurs just at the moment of an attempted submission so be attentive to his subtle shifts of weight. Learn all the positions. Dont leave a hole in your game.
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    But I can argue with anyone at any time... :p

    I think we are actually saying the same thing. If you recall, the original poster in this thread was having trouble with a person that had more grappling experience in BJJ (yellow belt), was 100 lbs heavier than him, and was getting high mount on him. He had 2 minutes to get out of it.

    Take everything I said in the context of this situation because that is the situation I am addressing. IME, high mount is for submission, not for hanging around for hours and riding out the storm. A person on top has many options, they can even stick a finger in your ear, you might not even think about putting your hand up to defend against it, next thing you are in a key lock or arm bar. Given they are at least a 100 lbs bigger, this makes a big difference.

    You can't play defensive all day when they have the initiative. Chess is about taking the initiative, being ahead of the game, more moves ahead than the opponent can counter.

    So I'm saying that you got to take it up a level and rather than a game of chess, you take to the game of speed chess. Get the person in the dominant position to speed up and make mistakes.

    When they start to make mistakes then they will give you more room to maneuver and counter.

    Give someone a hundred pounds on you in wrestling is like giving them an extra power piece in chess. Play a game of chess without your queen but they have theirs... it is not an even match. Make it a game of speed chess and they can be forced to make mistakes, you can take their advantage away from them.

    If the opposite, I'm the bigger guy on top mount, I want to slow things down. Methodically breakdown the opponent.


    Edit: Clarification, I do agree that the basics are necessary and should not be skipped out on.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2007
  12. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    Yes, I think I may misunderstood you. Often the opening comes when the opponent is rushed. For me however I do better just waiting for the opponent to start setting up a submission. Often his wt/or attention is else where allowing for a quick uppa to unbalance etc

    I used to hate being in someones mount especially if they were quite a bit heavier. I would almost get claustrophic from the pressure, but I had to learn to relax, conserve energy and then move when the time was ripe. Now I am actually have a strong defense from that position.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2007
  13. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I like the speed chess analogy :)
  14. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    Nice pointers, ta.
  15. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    Funny... i really don't use the mount position much...

    i'm a bigger fan of knee on belly... if i feel like mounting it's pretty easy from KOB... but then again ANY dominant position is easy to transition to from KOB.

    BTW, i only use bucking and shrimping to escape mount (and every variation of side control)...

    BUT if you're training with a Gi a VERY effective yet SIMPLE way to escape mount is to reach around the person on top of you and pull their belt up (just enough to...), stick one of your feet in their belt :) then push with your one leg and your hands (on his hips).

    You can use that escape on people who weigh more than 100 lbs more than you. Just be aware of any chokes before going for the move.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  16. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Yeah, backdoor escape.
  17. jamie1976

    jamie1976 Valued Member

    its in the legs!!!

    forget the arms leave the arms alone at the most trap an arm to keep his attention AWAY from his legs if you can get your legs into a gaurd position then your there! then with the arm you trapped earlier roll him over to that side this is obviously easier said than done but with practise it works everytime :woo:

    jamie :woo:
  18. fanatical

    fanatical Cool crow

  19. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    i think he's saying to shrimp (elbow escape).

    i forget if anyone mentioned... when you buck try placing both hands on your partners hips... now buck like normal BUT when your hips reach the top, AS your hips are about to drop (and are dropping) straighten your arms.

    Now insert one of your legs in-between your partner’s legs, basically on their crotch. NOW from there you can perform a sick heel hook by wrapping your other leg properly... but most people will opt to simply roll your partner over...

    That's my favorite No Gi mount escape..

    Don't try extending your arms right away... let your hips throw the person up first... work on the timing of the hip/arm movement and you'll be set

    BTW if you're escaping from the a high mount via a back door escape... your partner isn't that good (or you're a black belt)
  20. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    If I could only escape north/south with a backdoor escape...

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