Interesting Interviews with Choki Motobu and his son Chosei in the current Fighting Arts Magazine. The cover photo shows Chosei using the old Okinawan Fist formation that Kajukenbo teaches. Clears up some old questions. Strange how he doesn't mention Mitose though.
I'll have to check that out and read it. The fist is an indicator that it came from China IMHO. The fact that he is not mentioning Mitose is because he had no contact and he is not wanting to open another can of worms, that was incorrect originally, in my way of thinking. The vast amount of misinformation that came from Hawaii is truly amazing. From both side's? No, from one side I am thinking. Duplicity is the art of War and "Business" is a War, I have read. Gary
In a seminar last year with Mutobu Sensei somebody asked a question about a possible relationship with Mutobu and Mitose and the answer from Mutobu Sensei was, He never heard that name or something like that...
For the record, considering I feel Danjo is baiting you, are you of those that believe that Mitose went back to Japan to train under Motobu?
No I don't believe that for one second, but I think Danjo does. The Motobu thing is one that is truly made up and has been written off long ago by most that are in the various arts from (Mitose) lineage. Now that is a tricky one...Lineage.. If you read the book by Mark Bishop it is very clear about Choki and his lineage. Some claim it and others don't. So who is claiming it? Mitose Lineage is the ones who know better. And the ones who don't claim him, are blowing smoke. As in bringing up Motobu and Mitose all the time. The confusion was in the pictures he borrowed as in a duplication of things. Problem is they are all debatable and have been for a very long time. It will be on going until the new book (edition) is brought out by Thomas Mitose and clairified. I don't see that happening for quite some time I am afraid. edit: This makes sense to me. "In a seminar last year with Mutobu Sensei somebody asked a question about a possible relationship with Mutobu and Mitose and the answer from Mutobu Sensei was, He never heard that name or something like that"... Gary
Well to the best of my knowledge, Mitose awarded a bunch of black belts to numerous people who paid while he was in prison. That hardly makes any of them, or anyone who claims lineage to those individuals hardly a worthwhile source of such information (nor a source of proper Martial Arts training, but that's a whole 'nother issue). Personally I feel this is another issue that the Messiah weeps over us discussing, but I'm now compelled to pick up that magazine and check out the article. I suppose the lord shall forgive me for my sins....
Messiah did not help then nor now sorry. I believe you are mistaken for the comment that they paid for their lineage. But I would have to have more information than what you are saying. The ones who truly carried on the torch are just a few. Son, Bruce, Ray, John T. others come and go. Have you read to "fall 7 rise 8" by Bruce Juchnik? Or any of his books? Not that it matters for we all have opinions that are very much just that and not anything other than my friend mentioned etc.. But when you write a book it validates I am thinking. I have looked into it pretty deep and from what I have found, it is a conspiracy, on many sides. Not to be confused with the facts or fictions that are out there Legend has it, you print the legend, forget the truth. So if Motobu trained Mitose, why would he do that unless he was in the area of Japan that Mitose was. Mitose was a mere child and Motobu was in his 50s they say LOL..I don't think his character was of such to train children. Maybe they were on the same boat, but that is not correct either if you go to San Jose Kenpo and see which boat, and time they were on them. Motobu also died on Okinawa, 1944, they say he died peacfully. I don't know about that either, considering what I have read about that time frame, the Japanese and his dislike for them. Have you ever seen some of the footage of Okinawa and the war The stories that were told about the horrible things that were done to the Okinawans. Bad news. So it is something to think about these things I have mentioned. Mitose born 1916. Motobu born 1870 Gary
Gary, I knew you'd eventually reply with a cogent and coherent post. I do not think that Mitose was trained by Motobu. I think that when Mitose was in Japan he proabably got the school-yard karate and judo that they taught in PE classes over there and when he came back to Hawaii, he may have had some lessons. He clearly took Motobu and the other fellow's books and copied them to make his own, but they were already in publication in Hawaii from their previous visits. I think he took a fairly basic karate mixed with Jiu Jitsu tricks he'd picked up and made a name for himself as the first one to teach the non-Japanese. I think he got bored with it when he couldn't make a lot of money at it and took off to the mainland to try other con-artist schemes once he got here.
No temple, no other information that is abundant to many. No royal family connections? No special waza? No sword, none of those connections? Robert Trias and Mitose and Motobu? Yes or no? He did make a lot of money off of the prostitution houses that were going on in that time and place. According to a book "the first strange place" it was very profitable (so it is mentioned in the transcripts also) One of the funny things they talked about though was how much the white warriors, marines, army and navy (especially the marines) hated to bed with a Japanese woman. So who did he have in his stable? Kosho is an interesting name? Gary
Hi, could you e-mail me the kanji I would like to read it. Have you ever looked up the word "Kosho" in the New Nelson Dictionary? "Kosho" is one of those words that just have to have a Kanji to go with it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Nelson_Japanese-English_Character_Dictionary Gary
No. WTF? Is he saying that they preferred to bed with a Japanese man? The secret Samurai female warriors? Not to me.
I just browsed through the magazine with the article in question within.....all I can say is that is a god awful rag of a magazine. Nothing I hate more than reading a bunch of stories from supposed martial arts "masters" about how they beat up so and so, all the while reading it you'd think that they were in complete and utter control of the situation from start to finish. His story about putting on a mask and smacking around a friend who didn't know it was him, but everyone knew it was him because only he could be such an awesome fighter....made me LOL. That and the beating up the boxer with a karate punch story Reminds me of when I was reading the stories of Helio and the Gracies dominating in Brazil, and that entirely skewed revisionist story about him against Kimura. Never have I heard someone who got his ass kicked from beginning to end, tell the tale in such a way that you have to read it again to make sure you knew he actually lost.
Well, the story actually sounded more credible than it used to. He admitted that the boxer looked like an amateur and not a champion. I'd give more credence to your critiques if not for the fact that many many people that knew him attested to his abilities even during his lifetime. To me the magazine is pretty high quality. It's not like Grappling or whatever wher the only decent feature is the Ring Card Girl of the Month. Motobu was highly critical of the Karate of Funakoshi as impractical and useless for self defense. Motobu's karate had locks and throws as well as the punches and kicks. Big difference between Motobu and Gracie is that Motobu knocked out the boxer and Gracie got this arm broken by Kimura.
Well I admit I don't know much about Motobu. But I have read FAmagazine a few times, and it seems to be the same thing every time. The Aikido stories made me groan. And personally my favorite MA magazine has to be Tapout magazine. In every way I despise Tapout as a company, for the type of people they attract to the sport, how they portray the sport etc.....but their magazine is just so damned good. Awesome interviews, full color tutorials of techniques that are actually useful that I can try out in training, plus the clincher....NOTES FROM BAS. No magazine can NOT be good with a regular section called Notes from Bas, written by Bas Rutten. Not to mention their analysis of fights, current events and fighters is usually spot on. Grappling I like, lots and lots of techniques demonstrated, but it just doesn't compare to Tapout IMO.
How can you NOT LIKE Tapout's website. That is as close to porn as you can get with your clothes on. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrooohhhaaaaaa!
Well, Gary (or should I start calling you "Pop"?), Sijo said that the first time he heard the name "Kosho Ryu" (which he called "koko sharoo") was after Mitose was in prison. So no, I don't really see it as being part of my history.
"Koko sharoo" meaning what? Similar to his degradation of Kara Ho? Has anyone ever figured out what he was meaning, when he said, it was a dirty word? He never heard the term, "Kenposai Kosho"? I wonder if those two that he is degrading mentioned something similar to him about his term "Kajukenbo", have you heard anything about that? I am just curious. Those who throw stones should not live in glass house's, I've read. Gary is fine, to call me.
It was just the way he pronounced it. Your wierd speculations are making me understand why mom left you.
