Mostly this is what I hear which I have no reason to dispute but personally speaking, I have seen few Tang Soo Do senseis that teach Tang Soo Do in their own variation. The Tang Soo Do I have seen bares great resemblance to ITF Taekwondo. Difference being that sometimes Tang Soo Do guys go wide with their stance. Lisa Kozak and Pat Johnson teach it similar to traditional Taekwondo and occasionally, a passionate teacher will try to incorporate the kung fu. Based on Wiki: My belief is that Tang Soo Do is an umbrella term that consist of Taekkyon, kung fu and Japanese Karate. Some teachers may emphasize on one art or few techniques of the three arts. Ultimately speaking, you are correct in it being more shotokan based because the style that is Tang Soo Do has been glued to various Tang Soo Do organization. Modern TSD orgs teach the shotokan and that is what the public sees. I trained with teachers who are for a lack of better word, wild and rogue.
Sorry,I don't understand.Could you clarify meaning of "in their own variation"? Resemblance not surprising as TSD and TKD spring from the same source,Japanese Karate. Other than Northern Chinese kicking methods,what Gung Fu? Not to dispute that there are things considered to be generic CMA influence in TKD but no one has pinpointed specific CMA systems. Isn't the term"Traditional" TKD a bit of a misnomer? TKD has been evolving since the 1950s at least.Sorta like when Shotokan practitioners claimed "Traditional" Karate in the 70s.For a system which had been evolving since the 1920s and didn't reach its final form until the 60s. I'd like to know what Gung Fu the passionate teachers are trying to incorporate. Erroneous belief. TSD is not an "umbrella term", it's a distinct martial system-a 1930s version of Shotokan "Koreanized" over time and with more emphasis on and a greater variety/complexity of kicking technique. As Taekkyon was/is primarily about low kicking an emphasis from it in TSD is not seen. Other than kicking influence I see no more Gung Fu in TSD than in any other Karate system. In the years of a close association with an old school Chung Do Kwan group which still practiced the Shotokan kata did I not see any more CMA influence than one sees in any Karate system. All modern Korean systems try to claim some sort of descent from Taekkyon for cultural reasons, which is (understandably) not being comfortable with all of their "national" arts being unquestionably descended from Japanese systems-Karate,Judo,Jujutsu/Aiki-jujutsu. No,it's because TSD is.....well,TSD. See above. Yes because they're teaching TSD.It is what it is! Whatever that means. If they incorporate other things outside of their formal system into their own teachings that's not uncommon.Not exactly wild and rogue.
It means just that, each instructor teaches their own variation. Some focus on bouncing, others more on wide and low stance. Same material but emphasis on different technqiues. It is an umbrella term now because of different organization. Sometimes a style is tied to an organization. It either looks like karate or taekwondo. Sometimes you see Kung Fu incorporated or a Tang Soo Do that is kung fu heavy in terms of training methods. Again, there are different TSD organization and they teach different styles or emphasize on different techniques or area of combat. Some stand side ways, some squared up or some teach in an angled stance. Clearly a way you stand is a form of style. Some TSD teachers use TSD and TKD interchangeably. Some teach it just like shotokan karate. Not to mention that we also have a TSD called: American Tang Soo Do - Wikipedia The American Tang Soo Do is different than pure shotokan. My point is, just because a Tang Soo Do variation doesn't have a wiki, it don't mean its not real. As far as Taekkyon goes, every martial arts has a set of technique and exercises incorporated. Some TSD/TKD members may or may not embrace some or most of the moves. That is up to the instructor or the organization. In case of the latter, the organization, its usually inflexible and all the techniques are consistency mass produced for a greater audience which gives impression that a style that they are seeing is the most authentic form. In this case, the most popular Tang Soo Do organizations tend to be more Shotokan oriented, this is what you see and so do most people and the expectancy of it is that, TSD is a Koreanized shotokan.
I've yet to see a convincing argument for Taekkyon influencing any Korean arts. Gen. Choi eventually admitted there was no connection to TKD. Honestly, I'm not even convinced Taekkyon really survived into modern times; it's hard not to see it as another nationalist construct.
Same. At best I think Taekkyon can be seen as a cultural influence in terms of kicking becoming a focus of Taekwondo. Kicking being something the Koreans wanted to promote and bring to the fore to make their style different to Karate. So a conceptual influence perhaps rather than a technical or tactical one? An attempt at martial arts "branding". In the same way Okinawan Karate, when introduced to mainland Japan dropped the weapons, grappling, locks, chokes and throws it had in order to brand itself as a Japanese striking art to rival western boxing (and so as not to overly compete with Judo and Kendo).
Oh,sure. Everybody do dat! If an individual incorporates a lot of material from another system then obviously they're no longer teaching "pure" whatever. I'd like to know what specific Chinese training methods are being heavily incorporated. Individual style,yeah. If the methods exist within the system it's just another matter of personal preferences within the system,not an uncommon occurrence if one observes different instructors in the same system.Or as you note variants among different orgs practicing the same system. "Regular" TSD is different than even the 1930s Shotokan it stems from. Norris' since renamed TSD system was a somewhat different animal than his original TSD. I don't think veteran practitioners depend on Wiki for proof of reality of a given system. Except no modern Korean system has a proven nor observable Taekkyon influence or methods. Well,it's their authentic form.I agree most orgs stick -more or less- to a defined methodology and body of teachings. It is initially. It has evolved on its own over the years to have a separate identity.Not unlike the old school Chung Do Kwan friends of mine who never converted to the "new" hyungs. Wouldn't consider them a Shoto school,tho'. However,the relation is clear.
Lot of high kicks from Taekkyon are seen in Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo. Japanese and Okinawan karate tend to be low stance, basic kicks and you do not see high kicks that are based on long rate motion. To me, that is the Taekkyon in Korean Karate. Not sure why the sarcasm with "oh sure, everybody do dat!" There is no such a thing as pure karate. But the very essence of it, karate is an amalgamation of Okinawan martial arts and Kung Fu. Koreans added their own flavor to it. Karate means China hand which was renamed to empty hand. Every school and sensei has their own karate. Therefore karate is not truly pure because there are different karate style which makes karate in essence impure and more hybrid. I'd like to know what specific Chinese training methods are being heavily incorporated. Horse stance training, hip exercises, fluid movement and lot of conditioning stuff you see in Kung Fu can be found in non-commercialized Tang Soo Do who give you Tang Soo Do in its totality. Wikipedia has provided a far more in-depth and respectful as well as mature explanation than your snarky and dismissive replies. That and I believe Wiki because of the book inside u by Byong Yu. He explained alot of things and Wiki got it right whether you like it or not.
It's easy to say, "Lots of high kicks from Taekkyon are seen in TSD and TKD." Establishing that Taekkyon is actually the source, especially after Gen Choi specifically denied it, is a bit more difficult. I'm not denying they exist (though exactly when they come into common usage in TSD and TKD would be an interesting study), just disputing their source. Like I said before, the history of many Korean arts is intentionally murky. Mr George Vitale is an excellent source on much of this. There's a great story concerning Gen Choi introducing the twisting kick as another example. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you did say earlier that you did "pure TKD," so I'm not sure what your definition of, "pure," is? TKD comes from TSD which comes from Karate which is impure and hybrid. So I'm not sure how TKD can be pure? Years ago I interviewed Dr Kim, and one of the interesting things he said was that Korean arts don't really have lineage in the way others do. His take was that when you had learned what your teacher required, they would decide you needed to learn more about, say, throws, so they would send you to an expert in that. When you came back, they would see where you were, then maybe send you to an expert in locks, etc etc. So you had multiple expert inputs, not a familial lineage.
All contemporary individuals -at least since around the 1970s-80s claiming to do actual Taekkyon demonstrated mainly lower level kicking.At least any of the ones I was aware of.Not saying there weren't exceptions but higher level doesn't seem to be the norm. Perhaps more high kicking has been emphasized in recent decades due to the perception that KMAs are about kicking high? No sarcasm intended.Just kidding around with saying "everybody does that." Not literally everybody,just saying it's not uncommon for people to teach/stress their preferences within a system.. Sorry for the misunderstanding. That's why I put "pure" in quotation marks. Yep. Which is pretty much the case with every system we can think of,all the result of distillation and evolution. Until things become a more or less codified set system. Chinese systems certainly don't have a monopoly on grueling horse training,and as some Korean/Okinawan/Japanese systems don't use the same spinal alignment in horse as CMAs do I wouldn't consider their horse training having to be Gung Fu derived. If they have conditioning exercises which can be identified as specifically Chinese methods they're either the CMA derived things one commonly sees in Karate and descended systems or things added somewhat more recently and wouldn't be-historically speaking- part of TSD in its totality,just thing incorporated by various teachers over time. If they've become a standard part of the teachings of most formal TSD then I guess that would be TSD in its totality. The idea that" occasionally, a passionate teacher will try to incorporate the kung fu" sounds as if there is some body of CMA knowledge within TSD not commonly taught. Pardon my skepticism but I need specifics to believe that. I don't know which specific hip exercises of TSD which are supposed to be CMA derived but I've see Shotokan people do a lot of hip training,probably more than any other of the Karate systems I'm aware of. Without something being identified as a CMA method I'd lean towards thinking that's where TSD got theirs. My observation over the years is that most KMAs are executed somewhat more fluidly than the Karate systems (with exceptions) which would seem to be generally true of most mainland systems whether CMAs or others. I'd hazard a guess that pre Japanese occupation the same was true in Korea. I'm sorry I came off as snarky,was not my intention. If some things seemed dismissive I apologize if the tone was misconstrued. After years and years of hearing the same unhistorical claims -such as the huge descent TKD tries to claim from Taekkyon- one can get dismissive of such claims but sorry if that seemed dismissive of you as an individual. I don't feel I was writing snarky at all. If you're going to discuss history/evolvement of systems don't take disagreements personally.Always willing to update and revise what I know/believe. At the risk of sounding snarky are you the same? Please give examples of individuals emphasizing Gung Fu in their TSD and what the Gung Fu is. If a TSD instructor is emphasizing the one art of Gung Fu supposedly in the system at the expense of the JMA derived methods I fail to see how they are teaching TSD. Because that wouldn't be TSD in any of its various branches.No one is disagreeing about CMA influence in KMAs or OMAs,but you make it sound like TSD is majorly Chinese,or basically can be taught as a Chinese method when you state which simply doesn't make sense. I would be very interested if you could provide descriptions of the specific training methods in TSD which you feel are direct CMA methods not derived from the OMA heritage.Specific methods,not generalities like fluidity.
Sounds like practitioners' stories from all over-even in "ye olde days" when supposedly none studied with other than their teacher or within their system. But most did.
I checked my post and fair enough I did say that. Not to deviate but to provide context in my defense, pure in terms of current move set as oppose to martial arts parenthood. For example, Taekwondo has two style that is tied to organization. ITF and WTF as the main one. Both organization of consistency in their rule set and patterns. This is their identity in respect to purity and I should have clarified that when I do pure WTF taekwondo move sets. But from a historic background, its not pure. I watched Dan Nolan's Korean Karate documentary and from what I gathered was, Tang Soo Do was the old name for Taekwondo. Kind of like Shootfighting was the name used before the term Mixed Martial Arts was popularized. I appreciate the response. My apologies if I came off defensive. As the post above, Taekwondo, Karate have been very organized and regardless if its ITF or WTF, there is definitely an attempt to keep a consistent curriculum so that the instructors cant just come up with their own variation. So the move set and the identity of the art are solidified. To that end, the specific styles do not deviate from the mass teachings and thus everything is contained. So with that in mind, I would agree that what you see in organized schools that teach the style and represents its identity makes it so that you do not see the Kung Fu come out. That being said, there are many different Kung Fu styles, some resemble western boxing and then you had Pangai Noon Kung Fu which was the original Uechei Ryu karate. Now to answer your question about the TSD using CMA in terms of specific moveset. I noticed that some TSD teachers use a very low stance like you are in a horse stance and you are lifting one leg and pivoting. It reminds me little of Hung Ga. Now that can be argued that perhaps its second hand Kung Fu that made it in from Shotokan. But I did a bit of Shotokan and I do not remember it. Another factor was bouncing while staying low on the ground or bouncing to low stance crouching. When we do the WTF move sets, its mostly bouncing, its a good style but it is bounce heavy and it is harder to punch when you are always jumping around. The final thing I will say is, I checked Wiki, I watched the documentary posted above and that is the only reference in edition to what I have heard. At the end of the day, I am willing believe that Taekkyon did not make it to Tang Soo Do/ Taekwondo. Perhaps its the Korean martial arts culture that values fancy kicks. This could be a plausible reason.
there isnt a lot of kung fu in my area, and Im probably the only non wing chun practitioner in my area, but that's because i still practice Ziranmen and check in with my sifu often
