It was a joke, for God's sake. Perhaps you would have prefered "take ones dough" instead. JUST KIDDIN
I think the problem with this is that if you are a recreational judoka whose local club is competition driven, then there is the potential for missing out on a lot of classical judo techniques, many of which can be useful if one of the reasons you are training is self defence. With funding often being given for competition success, it could lead to fewer sessions being spent on the 'banned' stuff and eventually to a watering down of the style, purely because nobody knows how to do (and teach) the 'banned' techniques.
I agree with this as lot of times what you get when a successful competitor turns coach, is them teaching their bread and butter techniques which won competitions. If you as a student ask them to teach you something like kani basami or kawazu gake, their response is why would I teach that, it is illegal in competition. The same can be said for things like the limited leglocks or other kansetsu waza such as neck cranks which actually use to exist in judo. I know on the the judo info site there are a few articles that actually discuss these aspects, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who could teach you them outside of someone with sambo or bjj experience. There is a lot of judo which has gone the way of the dodo since Kano Shihan was alive.
By Judo standards, I am probably NOT the most traditionalist Sensei... not even close. My students also compete in NAGA, there for I must teach them firemen carry & double leg take downs. I teach chokes & armbars at a very young age (5+), which is illegal in Judo (chokes 13+ y/o & armbars 17+ y/o) and reverse chokes, leg locks and other stuff that is illegal in Judo (PERIOD), but very useful in a self defense situation where your life may be in danger and certainly in Jiu Jitsu & NAGA competition. Why not? Kani Basami is a different beast. It is a technique that is very easy to learn and use, but I dont teach it anymore due to the FACT it has been proven to cause many injuries. Who needs the liability? I teach my students everything they know, but NOT everything I know.
''Kani Basami is a different beast. It is a technique that is very easy to learn and use, but I dont teach it anymore due to the FACT it has been proven to cause many injuries. Who needs the liability?'' Not trying to be ignorant but can you give a link to where there is evidence that this has occurred? I wonder because I have also heard of injuries from other throws that have never been stopped. E.G. Kimura was supposed to have knocked people out when their heads hit the ground during an uchimata... Many techniques have the potential to hurt someone but why is this technique (Kani Basami) considered so much more dangerous?? Thanks (honestly) powchoy
I, myself, busted one of my knees due to Kani Basami... need I say more? In this case, in my opinion, the end does NOT justify the means... not worth it.
Probably, yes. I broke my foot doing a kuki-nage once, and I've seen someone dislocate their knee doing a seoi-toshi. It's all about the number of techniques done verses the number of injuries sustained doing that technique across a much larger sample than any one person's experiences. That said, I can see why kani-basami is likely to hurt, though I'd have thought it would be tori more likely to be in pain by the end of it due to the various ways in which the entry and the fall to the ground can go wrong for them.
The scissor is legitimately dangerous, as are leg entangling throws to a much lesser degree. However, a throw I feel is much more dangerous when applied in a resistant manner is Osoto gari and its variants. In fact I think that was actually the throw Kimura was famous for. The danger isn't really in knocking someone out, Kimura was just capable of doing so. The danger is in folding someone back over a twisted knee. It's the same risk in leg entangling throws and the scissor. It's my favorite throw but the scissor really does have an element of risk. My issue is with the view that it's out of line with the risk of legfighting in general.
I understand exactly where you're coming from. I dislocated my left shoulder at age 9 or 10, while trying to throw a Morote Seonagi. Please believe me when I say its not the same as a busted knee from a Kani Basami, not even close. My shoulder popped right back into place, no problem since, and Seonagi was my technique of choice for many years. However, my knee, 4 operations later, NOT so good at all. No more randori for me, only Ne Waza now. :cry: BTW: I was Tori
I understand your issue. The biggest difference IMHO, is that in leg fighting Tori (the offensive guy) is in NO danger of getting injured, only Uke (the defensive guy) can get hurt. In Kani Basami (Scissor throw) you never know who will be the one injured in the end. As you've implied and I can testify to it, Tori is just as likely to injure himself as he is of injuring Uke. IMHO - any technique which has the ability to break or destroy more than it can strengthen or build, should & must be banned from sport, especially one such as Olympic Judo, which is not only an amateur sport, but one who in many cases caters to children. Judo the Martial Art: depending on the situation, anything & everything goes.
Greetings each Answering your original question . No Judo is not better off without these techniques . To be honest I was not aware that Morote Gari and Kata Garuma had been removed from competion . Then again I do not practice sport Judo. All three throws are in our syllabus,but . Kani Basami is not taught due to the risk of injury as with Kubi Nage . Litigation etc . Yours in the spirit of Budo Mike
