After a whole year of NO Morote Gari or Kata Guruma, is Judo better or worse off because of it? How about Kani Basami? Should we bring all banned techniques back to Judo? What's your personal opinion? :ban:
Not that I'm trying to get rid of you. But this question is specific enough that you might have more luck asking to have it moved to the Judo forum itself. I haven't got the slightest idea what you just asked. Though my exposure to Japanese arts is pretty minimal. (Maybe 9 months, cumulative)
Bring them back ...even if only for syllabus work and not for competition they can still be viable options Smurf
Morote gari is "rugby tackle" isn't it? What was the justification for banning it - it was good for variety as a spectator :hat:
Neither morote gari or kata guruma are banned, even from competition. Their use is recently further restricted yes, but they are stilled allowed. They are of course still in the syllabus and hence are still in Judo, as is kani basami. Kani basami, as far as I am aware was banned from competition due to the injuries caused. So, considering the above it's really a moot question.
If you want a look at a kano-era Judo offshoot that never got so ban-happy, just try Sambo. All throws are legal, and unlike Judo, in Sambo even the banned techniques are generally well understood and practiced, thanks to the American Freestyle and Combat formats of competition, and the fact that even in Sport Sambo, the banned techniques vary from competition to competition. They even spent quite a bit of time in international judo competition through the mid-to-late cold war years. Oddly enough most of the banned techniques were or are Sambo staples, like extensive use of same-side grips, the scissor, the rolling uchimata, leg-entangling throws, and belt-grip throws. (I'm aware the belt grip is permitted for a short period, but the "3 seconds is plenty of time to attack" excuse doesn't hold up when world class judoka are gripping other things for far longer as a standard practice.) Frankly I'm surprised it took them this long to try and defang the shot and its variants. People were using the shot as a defensive technique. Apparently people were shooting, and then when he or she fails, immediately turtling and stalling out the ground period. It's basically a stifling patch on a problem caused by other goofy rules designed to steer the competition towards tachiwaza. Of course when you can't crossface or apply pressure to the throat, and you get stood up any time someone stalls on the ground, you're going to have a hard time breaking the turtle. Especially in the gi. Stalling gets waay easier when your grips are next to infallible.
I am not here to argue with you, but not only are they dis-allowed, just attempting either in competition will result in a "Honsaku Make" a loss via disqualification. In Judo you are NOT allowed to grip or grab below the waiste/belt in competition (PERIOD). Like it or not, agree or dis-agree, it is the rule as of 1/1/10.
rule changes http://judo.teamusa.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/20112/IJF_NEW_RULES_GB.pdf Page 2 clearly shows that leg techniques are allowed but only as a secondary technique. The rule sheet above from the IJF is self explanatory. Changes the tactics for initial contact but does not preclude their use overall. powchoy
No worries mate.. The coaches over here (at least some) still teach the techniques as not all judo is for competition. Personally I don't care if I ever do more than learn how to use as many of the techniques effectively in shiai in whichever club I might get to. No one says that you have to play by 'the rules' if the people participating want to try stuff out. I personally think it's a shame that judo has gone down this route because it was Professor Kano's skill at finding stuff that worked against all comers that made judo the great game it is. These days it seems the equivalent of changing American football into flag football. The intent might be the same but something is being lost that was there before for a reason. Funny that the Olympics and TV seem to be two areas that tend to hurt rather than improve sports. Would have loved to have seen the look on the faces of the early judoka if you told them we only allow certain throws in our dojo :' S. powchoy
I agree with you again. Judo has been watered down for decades to the point it doesn't even resemble the original Judo Dr Kano gave us, in order to prevent injuries. Here is my thought on that: Judo is a form of Martial Arts. Martial Arts, in any form, is a way to bring pain and/or injury to your opponent. Which brings up the question... Judo, Olympic Sport with too many rules (clean & safe) or Judo, Martial Art witout rules (kill or be killed)?
i heard that a lot of the watering down and rule changes were to keep the japanese at the top of the tree after the east europeans started dominateing with new grips and using takedowns from wrestling rather than going for the classical throws, is this true?
Their use is also allowed as a response to particular grips used by an opponent. More specifically the cross grip in its variations. The trouble is a lot of people are saying this is the death of Judo, but fail to realise that Judo is more than just its competitive nature. Judo is a martial art yes. And many, probably most people know it from the competition standpoint, it being in the Olympics and all with a large following. However, there is a lot in Judo that is not shown regularly if at all in the Olympics or in competition. And the same can be said for other arts that have a large or at least publicly well known sporting aspect. There are always going to have to be some form of 'rules' in Judo and in all martial arts. This is whether you are talking about competition or simply training. They are there to stop people from getting hurt and many around are unspoken rules that come as a result of common sense. You want the art to grow through its practitioners. And not many people are going to continue to train (if they are even able) if they get serious injury in their first week of lessons. So, the notion of kill of be killed in martial arts is just silly in these days in my opinion. The simple fact that in the vast vast majority of cases Judo and other grappling arts are training on mats is an example of these 'rules'.
I'll agree with what you're saying as one possible course these events could take, but have you seen Tae Kwon Do lately? Rules changes at the olympic level DO have a big impact on martial arts at the school level. Another thing to consider is the idea that the farther you get from the original badge of achievement, that being martial prowess, the more room you have to take shortcuts or avoid the sincere, hard, technical work that produce the qualities that judo, beyond many other martial arts, tends to hold up as the real goal.
"icefield" the answer to your question... YES! among other reasons, but that is the main one. "righty" I did not really mean kill or be killed - I meant to the death. LOL "Ratty" I believe you meant "Tae Kwon Don't".
Please don't try and start style-vs-style wars for no good reason. We can see that judo is your thing from your username.
"tae kwon don't"? No war, for any reason... not my intent. I meant no disrespect to the art form or those who practice it. judochampion.com is my website. Im also into wrestling, bjj and no-gi submission grappling as well as muay thai in the striking dept... judo is my forte but far from being my only interest when it comes to martial arts.
They do have an effect yes, but the more competition oriented the school is, the more of a change you see. I find it hard to believe any reasonable person would say or see someone say anything like that and not think it is disrespectful.
This was indeed one of the reasons why the rules changed, but there are others as well. The Russians and others posed quite a problem for the Japanese back in the 60s and 70s, which led to a lot of the rule changes. My instructor who started Judo and Jujitsu in Europe some 50+ years ago has a lot of stories about frustrated Japanese competitors from that period, a lot due to a Mr. Geesink, but also Parisi, Ruska, and Chochosivili who won many medals to name a few. Another reason why many of the rules have changed over the years is believe it or not, due to TV coverage and spectator ease of viewing. This is the very reason why they took out leg grabs and the like as first attacks, same with the invention of the blue gi, and the reducing of time in osaekomi.They want to have a more stand up, classical judo supposedly. I watched around 60 or so matches from the World Championships this year via web and the refs didn't call very many legs grabs at all, and there sure as heck was still not a lot of stand up judo going on, thats why almost half the matches were won on penalties for stalling and the like. So does the banning of leg grabs as a first attack really make a difference, I don't really know. But I can tell you at the local level they will throw you out of a tourney for just accidentally touching someone's leg even if your doing like a hip check or something to block a throw. I think the rules are hammering Judo and hopefully they will be eventually reversed. I have been in Judo now 20 years and I think there needs to be some type of review as to what the coaches want and not as to what will make judo more exciting to watch and keep in the Olympics. Anyway, enough of a rant.....:bang:
