More than 5 Sohn Ppae Ki?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by coc716, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    Another thread (the one on finger joint locks) started to deviate again into the question of "more than 5 Sohn Ppae Ki", and it's not the first time it's been brought up in threads so... let's start a definitive thread on the subject and get this ironed out. :) (and if there's already a thread on this, I apologize... I tried searching but since everyone spells the English equivalents differently, it's tough to search. For that matter, I'm trying to stick with the equivalents as spelled in textbook... some sort of standardization).

    As far as I have been taught, there are 5 Sohn Ppae Ki. They are all simple defense against wrist grabs, showing fundamental escape theories and the importance of Sohn Sahl Li Ki ("hands alive", the spreading of the fingers). It's the first technique set covered in Textbook volume 1, even before Ki Bohn Soo. That's "official textbook", if you will.

    Now, I have also been taught some "self-defense" techniques that aren't necessarily Sohn Ppae Ki (nor necessarily part of any other technique set I know), but a couple are based upon it. I mention this because the picture I'm getting (and I could be wrong, thus why I'm starting this thread to clarify), is it sounds like the "extra" Sohn Ppae Ki some people are getting aren't necessarily pure wrist grab defense but are just general self-defense techniques.

    So for those of you that have been taught more than 5 Sohn Ppae Ki, please do your best to share and describe exactly what it is you've been learning. And tho it probably is the case, do confirm the 5 Sohn Ppae Ki you do learn are the 5 in the textbook volume 1.

    Let's get this sorted out. :)
  2. TXKukSoolBB

    TXKukSoolBB Valued Member

    Just the original 5 here!
  3. justinksw

    justinksw Valued Member

    8 here:

    1 - hand to same side shoulder
    2 - hand to opposite shoulder
    3 - hand twist and straight down
    4 - turn hand up and push out
    5 - circle hand inside and then push out
    6 - both hands grabbed on outside, circle out then in and push to opponents chest
    7 - lappelle(sp?) grab - take wrist with same side hand, use other hand to lock thumb and push off.
    8 - belt grab - lock hands together under their arm and go up and over, performing elbow lock.

    Kind of crude explanation, but I hope you get what I'm saying.
  4. davefly76

    davefly76 Valued Member

    i only know the common five although i would accept number 6.

    7 and 8 technically aren't sohn pae ki's as they are not hand or wrist grabs (sohn = hand)

    number 8 also sounds like ahp eui bohk soo number 18.

  5. ImaJayhawk

    ImaJayhawk Valued Member

    We distinguish between the 5 and the 8.
    The eight we practice are:
    1. Same side grab, similar to number 1 in book but with elbow strike to chin. (I don’t have a book in front of me, but I know when we do the 5 we don’t do the elbow strikes)
    2. Same side grab, similar to number 2 in book but with elbow strike to side of head.
    3. Double grab, pull on thumb kind of in an arcing motion and punch to solar plexus.
    4. Double grab arm up (like Ssahng Soo 6-10), press down on top of hand in arcing motion down, and punch
    5. Double grab arm up, similar to Ssahng Soo number 9
    6. Two handed grab bring arms up similar to Yahng Sohn Mohk Soo 5 hitting their hands together and then pushing their arms toward them.
    7. Cross Hand Grab, rotate hand around and push on elbow
    8. Single Lapel grab, press down on thumb joint

    I remember seeing an article in Taekwondo Times that mentioned Sohn Ppae Ki’s and listed several of the ones listed above. I’ll see if I can find out which one or post a copy of the article somewhere.
  6. justinksw

    justinksw Valued Member

    I agree with you there. This is what brings me to question the uniformity of KSW between schools. Aren't they all supposed to be exactly the same?
    not really - our SPK#8 is more like this - opponent grabs belt with knuckles up. You place your hands together underneath their arm and interlace the fingers. Then pull up and over in the direction of an elbow lock and force opponent to the ground.
    AEBS#18 is much more devastating if you ask me.
  7. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    just the 5 in the book for me to. i think there used to be more, maybe thats the reason there still being taught. a lot of instructors don't update there knowledge in line with the changes and evolution of kuk sool. this could also explain any non uniformity between schools. i know some instructors who haven't been to a seminar for over 10 years, yet they are still passing on what they know (old & out of date) to there students
  8. davefly76

    davefly76 Valued Member

    it is, but it sounds similar up untill the part when you break your opponents arm with your entire body weight. :D

    re: your point about KSW schools being uniform. on my first national test for black belt we were all asked (as a group) to perform sohn pae ki's. a group of students, presumably from the same school, all claimed that they had never been taught them. :bang:

  9. Silentmonk

    Silentmonk The Blue Donkster!!

    Yes there were 12 at one stage when i was first taught them in 91. Then there were 6 now there are 5. Its a shame really because some of the really good ones were taken out. There are definately only meant to be 5 now though in the "official" set. I'd just think yourselfs lucky if you get shown some extra ones but find out which ones are the ones in the book too. :)
  10. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    i had this in one of my bbelt testings, but this group also had the nerve to tell the master who was taking the test that it wasn't in the cylibus so he can't test them on it! they got a very angry master's lecture on etiqute and lots of push ups. lol
  11. kswgreenman

    kswgreenman New Member

    I've never done them, and I think likewise for many of the bunch that started at the same time as me; this was at the genesis of our club, so as I far as we can make out they were covered at the free intro lesson that followed the pre-opening demo, rather than at the first class 'proper'. I'm not sure what proportion of people who started after us were shown them - they've certainaly never come up in grading thus far.

    In any case, turning up to a BB test without havnig taken responsibility for one's own grasp of things that clearly are in the curriculum seems a tad lame, to say the least...
  12. KSW_123

    KSW_123 Valued Member

    My eight are the same as justinksw's except that #1 and #3 are done as double hand grabs on a single wrist.
  13. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    This would be directed to justinksw and ImaJayhawk, since they listed stuff quite different from "the 5 in the textbook". Request for clarification. Are those all wrist grabs? For instance, in justinksw's list, #1 is "hand to same side shoulder". I'm reading that as the grab is the opponent's left hand grabbing my right shoulder, like Eui Bok Soo #5. If that's the case, I can't see how that's a Sohn Ppae Ki as your wrist isn't being grabbed, your shoulder is. But I could be misunderstanding what you typed.

    Regardless, these lists seem more like some general self-defense techniques than strictly Sohn Ppae Ki (wrist grab defense). This isn't to say they don't have merit as they certainly do; in fact, I'd love to see exactly what y'all do here (video?). Always good to learn more. :) But it does go to show that the only standard thing across the schools is that, despite best efforts, things aren't necessarily standard across the schools. ;)
  14. davefly76

    davefly76 Valued Member


    who is your instructor? kjn phillip hinchliffe? having been taught and graded by him i'm supprised he's never taught them.

  15. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    I don't recall ever being officially taught Sohn Ppae Ki either... like it wasn't the first thing I did, then into Ki Bohn Soo. However, there have been some classes where we went over them, so I do know them. It's just not something regularly taught, perhaps because it's not on the official curriculum sheet??

    But I do believe WKSA has been working to fix some of the uniformity issues. For instance, just this past year they changed the under-black-belt curriculum to spread it out a bit more. The biggest effect was at the Dahn Bo Nim level. Used to be just a bunch of technique sets at that level. But the result was that when multiple schools got together for testing, like down in Houston in front of Kuk Sa Nim, they'd divide everyone up by number of stripes so in theory everyone's at the same level but in reality frequently the last set everyone knew was different and so it made things frustrating to test everyone. Thus, the official testing sheet for under-black-belt now defines specific technique sets for each number of stripes. It now also ends at Bahng Too Ki instead of Dahn Doh Mahk Ki.

    Still, I don't believe the revisions addressed Sohn Ppae Ki. ;)
  16. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    I "think" he's refering to the direction one pushes the hand to release the wrist grab, not where your opponent is grabbing you.

    I haven't personally covered Sohn Ppae Ki in class since my early white belt classes. We only covered the five in the 1st text book. It's a shame if people aren't taught the techniques. They helped me memorize other techniqes early on. For instance, look at the motion of the hand in Eui Bok Soo #1 and #3. It's very similar to that of Sohn Ppae Ki #3. Ahn Sohn Mahk Soo #6 uses the same circular hand motion of Sohn Ppae Ki #5. The problem with skipping something as fundamental as the Sohn Ppae Ki set is that KS is the systematic study of Korean martial arts. If you leave out the basis for later sets of techniques, the system isn't as effective.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2005
  17. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    Ah! That makes a LOT more sense!

    An excellent point.
  18. Wolf

    Wolf Totalitarian Dictator

    I've only ever heard of the standard 5 until the recent posts here on MAP. I also agree that Sohn Ppae Ki needs to be taught. They are the building blocks of the later sohn mohk soo technique sets. Not to mention, they're easy to learn and apply in a tough situation. I've used them a number of times in grappling matches where my opponent is trying to gain control of my arm.
  19. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

  20. justinksw

    justinksw Valued Member

    I'm sorry for how I worded those; I was taking it for granted that the first 5 were all the same and I had 3 extras. SPK 1,2, and 3 are all outside wrist grabs. 4&5 are inside wrist grabs. 6 is both wrists on outside, 7 is lapel grab with opponent's thumb up, and 8 is belt grab with knuckles up.

    For SPK #1 we spread the fingers, and bring the hand up towards the same side shoulder to break the grab.
    Same for #2 except bringing hand to opposite shoulder to break the grab.
    #3 - spread fingers and pivot feet and body slightly to accomodate lunging your hand straight down to break the grab.
    #4 - inside wrist grab - spread fingers, turn your palm up while stepping out and pushing out with your hand to break the grab.
    #5 - inside wrist grab - spread fingers, rotate your hand under theirs and over it to break the grab, and push out on their wrist with grabbed hand, and lock the elbow with other knife-hand.
    6,7, and 8 I think you understand what I mean already. If not, let me know.

    I say 'same side shoulder' and 'opposite shoulder' to allow the technique to be either left grabbing right or vice-versa. We try really hard to learn and practice techniques (and forms for that matter) both left and right handed, so the description is usually not biased toward either side. Know what I mean? :)
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2005

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