More about Bukti Negara and common misconceptions

Discussion in 'Silat' started by taoizt, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. glennlobo

    glennlobo Valued Member

    Any conversation on Serak/ BN deteriorates rapidly doesnt it!?

    So.. Gnosis, you are claiming from your personal experience, directly from PDT, himself, that he is the lineage holder of ALL serak in the world? As Taoizt says, i think it is unlikely he would make that claim, but you know different?

    Knowledge and skill are interesting discussions. You mention platforms. they are i believe important in the De Thouars systems, but may not be in other styles. does that mean they are less skilled, or less able, or less knowledgeable? of course not. to claim that would be foolish. they may have DIFFERENT knowledge and skills and emphasis. I know Walter went to Indonesia and researched different styles so there must have been some there for him to investigate.
    I have been to Indonesia, and see the lists of styles in various places. I remember seeing serak in the lists.. I believe the evidence from youtube is that there is plenty of serak in Indonesia. Serak is also a style included in many other styles any not always taught as a style in its own right.

    People calling themselves Guru, Maha Guru, Guru Besar, are 10-a-penny. What those titles also need is a moral spiritual background to them, which some may have. In Indonesia and Malaysia there is a reticence to call oneself a Maha Guru because of the dangers of being challenged or attacked physically and spiritually- there is a lot of black magic out there.. so there may be people who have a level of skill. In the west, there is much more need for people to call themselves lofty titles to show their success and to attain the credit they think they deserve.

    there have been so many serak/ BN discussions that i do think the topic has been pretty much exhausted in terms of the hissy fits and name calling. oh dont forget the twisting of words and comments to suit your own ends.

    To continue what Taoizt says, focus on your own training skills and knowledge, learn as much as you can from your teacher, develop as a human being, learn compassion, tolerance understanding and acceptance. it is not, these days, as important to be better than someone else, but to be better than you were yesterday.
  2. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    I agree with Glenn and also with Taoizt for that matter

    I just want to add that Americans tend to overhype the style Serak whilst there are alot of other very good and effective styles out there, Indonesian and non-Indonesian.
  3. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    I think if we look outside our own bubble it's easier to find common ground.

    Do I think Bukti Negara is a solid system that is effective and works? Hell yeah. Do I think there are other styles that have similar traits? Of course. It's good to be convinced of your own system, hell you could even go so far that it might be better than other systems. Does that automatically mean that you as a person and practitioner are better than people from other systems? Most certainly not!

    In the end it's about the practitioner.

    Like I said it's about finding common ground on these websites. Does that mean that all arts are the same in their self defense approach? No, we could discuss on that.
  4. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Fully agreed.........
  5. Raffi

    Raffi New Member

    Taoizt this is incorrect "Uncle Paul never appointed a single successor in his Bukti Negara or his Serak". Bukti Negara was passed on to Guru Dan Huybrechts. No one can dispute this fact with evidence. However, it is easy to prove the claim with pictures and plaques given to Guru Dan Huybrechts by Pendekar Paul.

    To be more specific, Guru Dan Huybrechts was given Bukti Negara on June 8 1996 by Pendekar Paul De Thouars himself. Anyone who knows this organization knows this. You can go to the kunosilat website and look for the plaque given to Guru Dan as basic proof.

    Guru Dan has more pictures, more videos, more stories, and has taught more students at different periods and locations with Pendekar Paul than anyone else. He has over a Terabyte of videos and pictures. Guru Dan has long ago been recognized by Pendekar's family as the lineage holder, until today.

    To not include Guru Dan in any meaningful conversation about Bukti Negara is to lie about the art. You can go to either buktinegara dot com or kunosilat dot com and learn about Guru Dan, and his place in the art. You can search for Kuno Silat on YouTube and see how different Guru Dan moves as compared to other players making claims about lineage and rank and especially 'authority' to the art.

    No one can come close to Guru Dan's understanding and mastery of this art. Guru Dan is one of the most profound and effective martial artists you will ever meet. If a person claims to know more than Guru Dan, he can simply come to his public classes in North Hollywood CA on any given Saturday and prove it. Guru Dan's senior students have more understanding of Bukti Negara than any other lineage, period. And it is clearly evident.

    On top of that Guru Dan doesn't care about politics. Everyone is welcome to train if they want the art. Just be an honest person and work hard. The rest comes with time in.

    Please don't lie to the public by omitting critical facts of something you purport to be an expert in.

    And on the subject of your expertise, you make claims that are not accurate about the art of Bukti Negara.

    "So what are some of the principles:

    - We fight at one very specific distance and on a specific angles

    wrong, we fight in close, medium and long range. Bukti (Kuno Silat) prefers close range.

    - The other person hits, but we arrive first.

    You are talking about position. But this is depends on timing and skill and other variable. We can also attack first, so this is an incomplete statement.

    - We don't have a specific starting stance, instead we remain neutral


    - We don't block

    Wrong, there is an entire blocking system called Kilet. It is a strong blocking, entering and redirecting skill. This is one of the keys to know if someone studied with Pendekar Paul, or not...

    - We don't like controlling the opponent when he wants to attack you. Prevent a fight,but if needed you don't control

    Wrong, it is the attack itself that generates the muscular force that creates strong levers in techniques. If the enemy does not attack, you can fill in the same force using what's called anchor / wall. Again, if you trained with Pendekar Paul, these terms you would have and use.

    - The way we hit is totally integrated in our walking pattern. Even though we talk a lot about hitting, it's never just about the hands."

    Kilet and striking is integrated with Langka's and requisite positions. Most fake Bukti players can't do a Sapu because they can't stabilize the body under pressure.

    Go watch a video of Guru Dan and compare it to anyone else claiming to be Bukti. You will see what I mean.


    Raffi Gabriel

    Combatives Academy

    Los Angles, CA
    glennlobo likes this.
  6. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Raffi, some good remarks, I will PM you with my replies. Like I said it's about finding common ground on these websites, i don't think our self defense tactics don't vary a lot.
  7. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Please do reply here in public because certain folks are following this topic. And you are the original poster after all.
    Raffi likes this.
  8. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Sorry Dylan9d, I prefer to do otherwise. We don't want to turn another thread into a political centerpiece. I think we decided already to let it rest more than one year ago.

    For everyone sincerely interested in Bukti Negara:
    If you want to know more about Bukti Negara in reality (not verbally) I would advise everyone to actually go meet and see a senior practitioner of the art (be it Bukti Negara -Unified Art, Kuno Silat, PDT academy or otherwise) and base your opinions on that AFTER SOME SOLID TIME IN THE ART. Anyone can for themselves choose to follow one line or the other. Actually an advise for every martial art. We all seen the Wing Chun / Ving Tsun / Ving Tzun / Weng Shun /Wing Tsun wars.....
  9. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    This topic was quiet for a long time and now someone makes a good post here and opposes your vision on Bukti Negara and you are unwilling to respond? On your own topic?

    I think that's a bit strange..... especially if you want to find that common ground.
  10. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Dylan9d don't worry i'm willing to respond ;)
    Dylan9d likes this.
  11. glennlobo

    glennlobo Valued Member

    Ok so since the post was about misconceptions, mine are that since Dan left BN, he can no longer claim to be the person in line for BN. I am neither disputing his skills, nor his knowledge. Likewise, the Board created by PDT- if you left it, then you are no longer part of BN, so creating your own BN is duplicitous.
    My understanding is that BN was created by Paul, so any discussion about Serak is meaningless in the context of BN.

    i would be interested to hear more about the differences you and Raffi see in your arts, and the applications.
  12. Raffi

    Raffi New Member

    Ron, I prefer to discuss in public. Please continue the discussion here.
    glennlobo likes this.
  13. Raffi

    Raffi New Member

    But what is PDT exactly? It is not Bukti Negara created by Pendekar Paul De Thouars, because the curriculum in PDT is vastly different than the Bukti Negara curriculum.

    PDT is essentially "a board of directors". But what are they directing exactly?

    Here is what the website states:

    The PDT Board of Directors supports Pendekar Paul De Thouars by:

    Assisting him in decision making and policy development for the PDT Academy.

    - This is no longer applicable since Pendekar passed away.

    Safeguarding the Art of Pukulan Pentjak Silat Serak and maintaining its traditional forms and principles as presented by Pendekar Paul De Thouars.
    -FAIL. This is completely false and inadequate.

    Safeguarding the Art of Pukulan Pentjak Silat Bukti Negara and maintaining its content and progressive development as presented by its creator Pendekar Paul De Thouars.

    -FAIL. This is completely false and inadequate too, needless to say.

    Developing knowledgeable, competent and dedicated practitioners.
    -Maybe, but not of Bukti Negara or the Serak of Pendekar.

    Expanding public awareness and appreciation for the Arts taught by Pendekar Paul De Thouars.
    -If this was true, you would also make it clear that there is a source for everything Pendekar taught. I don't want to name names, but the person's name sounds like Dan Huybrechts.

    Expanding public awareness and appreciation of the contributions and committment made by Pendekar Paul De Thouars to the Arts.

    -How if you don't have either Pendekar's Bukti Negara system or his Serak system?

    How can these claims be made with any legitimacy or seriousness?

    The reason the "PDT Board of Directors" fell apart is because there is nothing to it other than claims made to the public that an organization exists called PDT. And then what?

    Without the art, it means nothing. There is no benefit in purporting that there is an organization that exists for an art that is not known to the members of the board.

    To your point Glenn, the best thing to do is to train the art. All the discussion in the world online won't give you the art. People dwell endlessly on minutia about the rumors of the art, but they don't bother training it.

    Guru Dan is Bukti Negara. Guru Dan is Pendekar's brand of Serak. He was given the art in 1996. He has not only all of Pendekar's knowledge, he also has tons of pictures and videos of years with Pendekar. Guru Dan considers Pendekar as a father figure, not as a business associate to create a board of directors with.

    Guru Dan does not flaunt any of it, because he doesn't have to.

    What I see online making claims because of a "Board of Directors" can never change the facts. PDT can't have authority over something it doesn't know. PDT can have authority over PDT. So good luck with that. It is a road to nowhere and will be long gone while the art of Pendekar will live through the Kuno Academy of Martial Arts headed by Guru Dan.

    Glen, come train at least in a seminar when you get a chance. You will see that no one cares about any of this PDT nonsense. Its all about training, not posting about training, online.

    There are many videos on YouTube. Just search for it "Kuno Silat". You will see many differences if you want to look into it.


  14. Raffi

    Raffi New Member

    For those interested, there are several tell tale signs that a person never studied with Pendekar Pal De Thouars (maybe they met him or did a seminar or a handful of classes at best).

    1) They call Pendekar "Uncle Paul". No one ever called him uncle paul - ever. Anyone training with Pendekar called him Pendekar. That's it. Everyone knew who you were talking about. This whole "uncle Paul" business is something taken from people who trained with his brothers.

    They started calling Pendekar "uncle Paul" in order to make the brothers seem like they were all on the same level. Wrong! All the brothers looked to Pendekar for material. Pendekar gave his brothers material to give them a chance to work ($$$).

    2) Making claims of "having" Bukti Negara but....

    A. Having no record of finishing the art
    B. Having no evidence that you knew or trained with Pendekar during the lion share of his life as a teacher (which was decades long).
    C. You claim the art because you were around in the early years
    D. You claim the art because you were around the last two three years of Pendekar's life and want to fool people that you are now an authority somehow.
    E. No one in the art knows you.
    F. You are known, but are known for not completing the art.

    3) Claiming that your particular blend of Bukti Negara and something else you do or did is the same as laying claim to having Bukti Negara.

    Blending what you know with some things you learned from Bukti does not mean you have the art or can in any meaningful way represent the art or lay claim to using the name of the art to represent what you do - unless you want to fool people.

    4) Being on the board of PDT.

    (eyes rolling). As if...
  15. Raffi

    Raffi New Member

    Come to one of our Kuno Silat Seminars if you are far from Los Angeles. We are located in North Hollywood, CA on Burbank Blvd.

    If you want to find us, go to buktinegara dot com or kunosilat dot com.

    Notice we still retain the domain name buktinegara dot com.
    glennlobo likes this.
  16. glennlobo

    glennlobo Valued Member

    I met Paul at a seminar he did in the UK. I liked him. I am intrigued that people talk so much and show so little. An arrogance of “we are the sole…” or “we are the best..” etc doesn’t sit well with me.
    Paul was a lovely man when I met him.
    There are too many gurus and maha gurus in silat with no moral compass. I have always trained with people I consider good men, and have never been let down by them- Pa Flohr, Hj. Omar Din, Paduka Johari Jantan, and in LSAI, Master Shaun Porter. I no longer have the time to waste on people who aren’t worth the effort. Guru Dan may be a fine person, but I haven’t the time to find out! My experience with Bukti in Europe is not favourable- if people cant keep their word, and don’t show integrity, I have no time for them, “guru” or not.
    I would like to hear more about some of these points you raise, but more in the intricacies of the art.
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I've always thought that what the martial arts really need is more politics and internecine bickering.
    bassai and taoizt like this.
  18. Raffi

    Raffi New Member

    Glenn, don't worry about it. You are not being charged with obligation to do anything with anyone. And frankly its not feasible to teach someone not local, so you are doing the right thing by training with people you have access to.

    There are too many maha guru's. We don't have a single maha guru. We have a Pendekar who passed away, and we have Guru's and students. That's pretty much it.

    As far as intricacies of the art, I don't have the time to devote to explaining the art online. I'm sorry, I wish I did. Keep posted for more videos and DVD's coming out in the future from or even if interested in more info about the art.


  19. Raffi

    Raffi New Member

    Clearly it doesn't but sometimes you have to set the record straight. People can decide for themselves after that.

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