More about Bukti Negara and common misconceptions

Discussion in 'Silat' started by taoizt, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Ok Hannibal, got your point. Will refrain from personal stuff, hope the other guys also honor this request.
  2. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Like I asked earlier, close it before it goes nowhere which already happend.

    Got your point Hannibal, thanks.
  3. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    To add a bit of content to the thread:

    So what are some of the principles:

    - We fight at one very specific distance and on a specific angles
    - The other person hits, but we arrive first.
    - We don't have a specific starting stance, instead we remain neutral
    - We don't block
    - We don't like controlling the opponent when he wants to attack you. Prevent a fight,but if needed you don't control
    - The way we hit is totally integrated in our walking pattern. Even though we talk a lot about hitting, it's never just about the hands.

    To name a few.
  4. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member


    I was reading back on this topic and I want to give you my sincere apologies, why you would ask, well I made some statements in the heat of the moment that were pretty bold and personal. I made those in public so it is fair that I do this in public too.

    I have let myself go in a manner that I wouldn't do anymore on any forums. I know when I'm wrong and in some cases i was very wrong and went to far.

    So again, apology for my behaviour, like you said there are to many keyboard warriors and don't want to be one of them, period.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
  5. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Hi Dylan,

    Big of you to apologise for that. When you read back you often read a certain 'tone' to an article that you didn't notice at first but later understand that it might sound wrong. I would write certain stuff different in retrospect as well.

    Hope your endevours in your style work out well.


    Ps. Walter and I would love to visit you sometime soon on one of your training nights
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
  6. haidarfarhan

    haidarfarhan Valued Member

    what kind of silat is this ? never heard of it, i only know about Silat Bakti Negara not Bukti Negara, Silat Bakti Negara is Balinese Silat

    Bakti (indonesian spelling) and Bukti (english spelling) sound the same but different meaning

    Bakti Negara = Country Devotion
  7. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Bukti Negara is a silat style, developed in the United States by the late pendekar Paul de Thouars. He learned the style Serak which is known in Indonesia. Bukti Negara is a direct offspring of Serak.

    Bakti Negara indeed is from Bali and has almost no similarities. Only similarity is that both derive from West Javanese styles.
  8. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    A new video of Bukti Negara from our head instructor, Walter van den Broeke,


    In the video you can see a lot of the pukulan aspects that are very prevalent in our style. Pukulan for us can be seen as a different style since the tactics differ from the various pencak silat styles more commonly known from Indonesia.
  9. Gnosis

    Gnosis New Member

    Paul de Thouars was made the lineage holder of Serak. Shortly after, Paul appointed his brother Victor de Thouars his successor, because he knew the entire system too. Then they had a falling out that lasted a lifetime.
    Paul never appointed anyone else his successor, in fact he never taught much of Serak. Then Paul created BN in the mid 1980s.

    So the lineage holder after Paul is still Victor, and he has passed on the system to Horacio Rodriguez.
  10. glennlobo

    glennlobo Valued Member

    Lineage holder of SERAK.. there are several lineages of Serak. To suggest that anyone has authority over all the lineages of serak would be .. interesting.
  11. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Ach the can of worms. Gnosis, it's nice that you defend your system, but perhaps it's wise to also look around for other opinions in the wonderful world of Serak to have an informed opinion.

    Serak is an entirely different subject, we are discussing Bukti Negara here. Uncle Paul never appointed a single successor in his Bukti Negara or his Serak, you are right about that, hence the politics, however he did appoint a board of directors shortly before his passing. I was there, were you?

    Glenn is right that no one has authority over all lineages of serak.
  12. glennlobo

    glennlobo Valued Member

    Didnt realise it was his (gnosis) system. Paul CREATED BN. Despite the arguments over it, he also created a Board of Directors before his passing.

    I dont really understand why you are raising this whole can of worms. Just do your thing, if it is with Horacio, then so be it. All of the Board members have done their time and are worth investigating. but this is BN not Serak.
  13. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    How many lineages Serak besides deThouars are there actually?

    Did anyone investigated that? I heard that Walter visited one of the lineages in Indonesia is that true?

    What was the big differences compared to deThouars lineage?
  14. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Walter (van den Broeke) visited several lineages in Indonesia and I was there some of the times.
    Some Serak is completely different with different jurus, different knowledge, different flavour, different mentality etc.

    Some are more similar to the Thouars lineages. De Thouars lineage basically derive from Paul de Thouars and Maurice de Thouars.

    Again I don't want to be drawn into a Serak discussion, the Original Post was about Bukti Negara.

    There are so many differences and also superficial similarities. Too much to discuss. Only people who actually train this stuff will spot the differences in the smaller details.

    But perhaps someone else has some things to add to the discussion.

    Dylan9d you probably know the channels to get more info so it shouldn't be too hard to find out more about it. But I understand that it can be confusing to outsiders.
  15. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Well I know the channels but I was curious about the differences since I will never go to Indonesia myself.

    And the channels I have haven't been to Indonesia for 50 years or so :D

    The only personal experience with Serak was Maurice deThouars teaching some stuff at our workshop in 2002, and meeting Dolf de Vries there, which was an honor ofcourse but he didn't teach Serak but let his son teach Cimande to us. My own teacher Jim Ingram trained with Maurice sometimes but he didnt specify to us what he gave was Serak and what wasn't so I don't know, we all got it under the Amerindo banner so....
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
  16. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Learninig the system of Serak (or Bukti Negara) is something different than learning some moves. There are thousands of people who learned some of the moves, heck there are even people who know all the jurus but still have no clue of the system.
    On internet there are plenty of serak or bukti teachers, giving online courses, dvd's etc.. google is your friend.

    In the end it's about how much knowledge and understanding you have of the moves (and it goes waaaaaaay deeper than the superficial stuff). With all due respect, it's not kravmaga but a traditional art so it helps if you have a relatively direct lineage with connection to skilled teachers.

    Sadly most of the elders are gone by now (Regardless the lineage) so it remains to be seen what the next line of lineage holders have in actual knowledge and skill.
  17. Gnosis

    Gnosis New Member

    So basically you are saying that Paul de Thouars was lying, now that´s interesting.
  18. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Gnosis, I don't think Glenn meant that.
    The late Paul de Thouars indeed doesn't have authority over all the lineages of serak, and having met the good man a couple of times intensively i don't think he would make a lofty claim like that, at all. There are plenty of Serak styles in Indonesia which claim different lineages.
  19. Gnosis

    Gnosis New Member

    I think you should look at the knowledge they have then. Compared to Paul de Thouars and Victor de Thouars, they have nothing. Some of them dont even have the platforms.

    Plenty of Serak in Indonesia doing what? Plenty? really?

    Plenty means many, lets make a list then.

    Anybody can claim to be a grandmaster and pass the system on, but who has the knowledge?

    If you ever been close to Paul de Thouars or Victor de Thouars, then you know they have knowledge.
  20. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Gnosis i guess you are from America? I agree that Paul de Thoaurs had a lot of knowledge and skill. I felt it directly from him. Victor i can't comment on.

    However i can't comment on others either, unless i have touched hands with them or seen them upclose.
    The same should go for you as well.

    Do i have an opinion on all of this? Sure i have, but what is more important to me is that this doesn't turn into a politicial discussion. De Thouars and their students have had them for years and years. And what did it bring them except for a lot of infighting?

    Please stick to the original subject. If this turns into a serak fitty i'm out, nothing to gain from that. Just read all the old discussions back till the early 90's to be found online.

    Focus on what you and your teacher know, and who knows in the future people meet eachother. Then we will see who has skill or not.

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