I wonder if there is a little East/West mindset going on here - IE where in the US/UK people expect a Black Belt (insert MK) to mean the person is a Master? Also, was learning the Ryu Ha not the main thrust of the Bujinkan from day 1, or has that changed over time? Or do some teachers still think learning the Ryu Ha is the main thrust of the Bujinkan?
Let me first ask a few questions so we stand on common ground here: -Are you sure they did not learn the ryu-ha systematically? If yes, please elaborate as to how you can be sure. -Are you sure they were handed the MKs way before they knew the material? This is linked to question above so depending on your answer you may allready have included it. -The Bujinkan was founded long after, what do you know about the training back in the days before the Bujinkan? In order for this to have any relevance it would also be interesting to know: -How did Takamatsu sensei teach and award grades to Hatsumi sensei? -How did Toda sensei teach and award grades to Takamatsu sensei? -How was it done before Toda? Regards / Skuggvarg
Shuggvarg posted I don't know, but its interesting how you have changed the subject around to me saying "How can one be sure they have" to one of you saying "How do you know they didn't. This is a classic form of argument I see on this forum again and again. When ever a question is raised about the authenticity, background etc of anything to do with the Bujinkan, the question is never answered, but instead the question is thrown back to the enquirer asking "how do you know they didnt? No i'm not :bang: But i'm going on well documented stories even from people like Manaka that claimed they had the MKs in the 1960s. This is all irrelevant, and to be honest a method of clouding the question. Here it is... Did the shihan go through the scrolls systematically and learn Shoden, Chuden, Okuden etc in turn, or were they given the MK and scrolls/techniques before they had actually mastered them? its quite simple. Asking me questions like "Well do you know how the Bujinkan functioned in the early days is IMO a red herring. Oh and by the way in relation to Toda teaching Takamatsu, wasn't he first taught to hit rocks with his hands and run up a beam for months before he learnt any real techniques, oh and thrown around for a year and never taught a single technique?
Manaka Sensei has an excellent section of his book Reflections, where he talks about his training with Hatsumi Sensei during the time Takamatsu Sensei was alive and he states that Menkyo system was offered first and then later the dans came, he also went on to mention the learning was inthe systematic shoden, chuden, okuden, etc.
This makes sense, IMO. As I understand it ryu-ha are built around a logical progression with one part building on the next.
Garth, I agree that your question is simple but I think it's unlikely you will be able to resolve this as virtually noone (at least I think noone) on this board will have been training at the same time - hence unless you have a relationship with one of the shihan that allows to ask them you will struggle to get the kind of independent verification you seek. You are left with the stories of others to base your view on. Alternatively you could train with one of the MK holders and make your own judgement as to whether they justify the award of MK in your view. As to whether they were awarded the grades before they had attained the skill to match the award, this is not so unusual an idea. There is the concept of Sakizuke (achieving a rank before the actual skill/understanding has been achieved) which could be one explanation for the award being given out early - there is a straightforward explanation of this concept on Duncan Stewarts blog Shugyo. Dunc posted From what I have been able to gather from the shihan the main difference was that they did a lot of basics and study of the forms in that period To my mind going through a period like this is what separates the mediocre from the very good later on This I think is very relevant and completely agree. Just a few thoughts.........opinions likely to still vary widely.
This is also true for the nine ryuha but they have as extra that the ryuha that come from the Toda family also build on each other in movement and foundation.
Eeeeh, no, not that I can recall. Oh yeah, I wasnt even born then. Ive heard those stories too and if they are correct then you still got it wrong. The running up a beam was in connection with the story about him learning ninjutsu, didnt say anything about the kata of other ryu-ha. All you need to think about is that Takamatsu very quickly became a talented young martial artist and recieved his MK before he had even reached his puberty. Thats something dont you think? Do you think Takamatsu sensei had learned 'everything' still at that age? Maybe he wasnt worth his rank? Maybe Toda handed out MKs like Santa hands out christmas gifts? Or... maybe not. You decide what you want to think. Regards / Skuggvarg
I remain sure that if a person can show the traits necessary to obtain one MK, they are likely to be more competent in obtaining further ones. Its almost like the people behind a series of successful silicon valley startups. They show the proper understanding of how things work, the commitment to doing things properly and a proven track record.
Another point that is important to understand is that Takamatsu sensei received from his grandfather through one-on-one transmission. The same goes for Hatsumi sensei receiving from Takamatsu sensei. That also gives more freedom to jump from one ryuha to the other and from one level to the other to show connections that normally would not be clear. As I understand it now there is three levels of transmission. Omote, Ura and Jitsuden. Omote is in the dojo for everybody. Ura is for a select group of students ussually outside of the dojo and the jitsuden is from one soke to the next. I know of at least one Shihan with menkyo kaiden that also received private training with Hatsumi sensei outside of normal dojo classes. He holds many MK.
Hmmm. Why do you ask a red-herring question right after stating that the question asked of you is a red herring?
I am still a tad confused. Is anyone stating that Ishizuka, Zoughari, Kacem, (even Joshua Polier) aren't from a good background or lineage? Can it not be said that these are qualifying instructors within the art? Is there politics involved to a degree that not all give credit to any of these people? In a nutshell, there are charletains out there that seem to lay claims just by studying a book, video, or some other hodge podge, thinking it is of a lineage. In other words, Ishizuka, Zoughari, Kacem, (even Joshua Polier) could very well be more qualifying then those charletains?
Interesting how rank or who's who seems to surface over the structure of being taught anything of value or quality. I wonder how far apart will the org will become after Hatsumi's passing
Why do you keep adding seemingly random names to the list? And I think Kacem and Zhoughari is in fact one name. I assume you must know this Joshua?
At last after a huge smoke screen of passing the question back to me, instead of answering the question as well as completely missing the point Sandstorm posts... You see guys thats how easy it is to answer a question. Thankyou Sandstorm, and in no way are my comments above refering to you.
Benkyoka posted... No sorry not a red herring. A red herring is when you try to takethe subject of the question away from the actually question kind of like a tangent. However as Shuggvarg postedthe question... My answer of... Is not a red herring as it directly answers Shuggvargs question.
Shuggvarg posted I don't think I did. So you misread what I wrote then. I'm sorry you missed this. Go back and read my original post again. PR posted a comment, my reply was in the way of "How do we know they learnt it (MKs/Ryu Ha's) all when they were given it when Hatsumi was ill" Thats called a question. I didnt state that they were given it before they were ready for it, I just asked if they had gone through the Shoden, Chuden, Okuden system systematically. However instead of answering the question, (and a "Don't Know" would have been fine by the way), it was thrown back in my face as a "Well how do you know they didn't" which is not answering the question. Suddenly however i'm accused of making statements I did not make, and the burden of proof is placed firmly back on me. Which is why I posted that this is something we see on the forum again and again. Why are you questioning my knowledge of such events when I have asked a question? Bizarre. If I had stated a fact then your reply might carry some weight, but its completely inappriopriate to ask someone about their knowledge when all they are doing is asking a question. Its almost like you can't ask a question unless you are an expert on the subject your asking a question about. Hence why I asked the question :bang: No I just expected the question to be answered. Actually the story of the Shihans receiving the Menkyo Kaidens back in the 1960s when Hatsumi was ill has been pretty well documented. You called my hand? I dont think you did. What you did was try to use a red herring which had nothing to do with the question I asked. And this is where your completely missing the point, and what you have posted is irrelevant to the question. If the statement is that the Shihan have earnt their Menkyo Kaidens, in other words learnt them, mastered them, then saying... "Well in the Bujinkan it doesnt work like that, sometimes the Menkyo Kaidens are given out before time" Is irrelevant to the actually question because it still doesn't answer if the Shihan have actually mastered the Ryu Ha which their MKS refer to. It really doesnt matter if the Bujinkan gives out Menkyo Kaidens in a packet of smarties, as a gift on your first night training, or if you can order them through mail order, it still doesnt answer if the Shihan have actually mastered the actual Ryu Ha they were given out the MKs in. So what, It doesn't matter if back then the earth revolved the other way, the sky was green, and Hatsumi had dyed his hair purple. It still doesnt answer the question, and to use phrases like "Well it was different back then" is totally irrelevant to the question. Right this should be easy. If you have a source, whats the answer to the question? and please don't reply with a statement like "Well it was different back then" Or "Well prove they didn't master them" Because this is not answering the question but just throwing a question back at me. So you can't answer the question, but instead decide to have a go at the questioner. Did I actually mention which ryu ha? Does the Togakure ryu not contain kata? Can you not get a Menkyo Kaiden in Togakure Ryu? Yes this is where I think your confused. i'm not saying that the MKs shouldn't be given out before there time, just asking if the MKs are given out before there time how do we know the holder has actually mastered everything in the ryu ha.
