Believe it or not I do try. An addendum to that though is I don't see that philiosophy or outlook as an excuse to do lacklustre training or learn ineffective nonsense. If you're going to train to be fit and active and healthy you can do that just as well doing effective and pragmatic martial arts as you can doing flouncey farting about. Actually training hard (and not just getting sweaty but being taxed and tested) is where the most growth (mental as well as physical) can be achieved IMHO.
I'll disagree with you on that one. A question on causality, and semantics with your pedantry not unconnected to your desire to justify your own position with a group that seeks to study in an organization that does not hold any formal certification such as MK within the Takamatsuden Ryu ha. You can call it anyway you want to, but at the end of the day some people have MK in the Ryu Ha, and some people don't. Those that do have this in the Ryu Ha possess a good understanding and are good representatives of the arts. There is a very clear and discernible difference with these people, and not everyone who has been around for a long time has a MK, therefore, MK in the Booj does not mean 'nothing' it means quite a lot. Those that do not are more of a mixed bag. However, I am not saying which group your teacher is in because I haven't seen him move, and I do believe that some that don't have MK do have good movement.
Hello Chris , its nice to see you back on the ninjutsu section! If you had said rank in the bujinkan means nothing, I'd totally agree with you, wholeheartedly, it's nothing more than a bit of paper traded for money, much like Wayne Roy's when you think about it? Whilst I think hatsumi sensei must be wetting himself laughing and the hopeless people he gives grades to willy nilly, I don't think the same can be said about the m.k.'s I have been out the loop for a while, so I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure there were very few M. K. Holders? Maybe hatsumi sensei still keeps this of value ? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_l757KxTwE&sns=em"]Bujinkan Demo Tokyo US Embassy 80's - YouTube[/ame] I can see the difference between this and gaijin butt. Surely your not simply meaning, "those m.k.'s are in the various Ryun 's not bujinkan budo taijutsu, which is taught" or similar? The point I feel people are eluding to is the quality of these people ( m.k. Holders) as appossed to the rest. And also if these people are holding full transmission licences in said ryu, wouldn't that mean said ryu is being taught ? Sorry I don't have your elliquence but hopefully my point comes through regardless.
Therefore, these two people cannot represent the lineage. I would think being members, train, or dedicated to a system, that they are "part" of that system's lineage...no?
No. I'm talking old school Japanese folk. I'm not in a position to talk about Kacem, though IMO from a technical perspective I'd have no issue with him as MK.
Wow, so Chris is back in the game, now that some time has passed since the videos of his movement showed up on the net and his skill level was exposed. And obviously, as this thread is proof of, he hasn't stopped making authoritative claims of an art and organization to which he has ZERO connection. This is not a personal attack - but here are a few very important facts for anyone who reads what he says and is inclined to believe his words because of his authoritative writing style. Fact: Chris Parker has never met Kacem and knows absolutely nothing of him, except for what is written on the internet. Whatever rankings Kacem has, Chris Parker will be one of the last to find out. Fact: See above - Chris knows nothing of Kacem, nor Kacem's understanding of the ryû. Fact: Chris has NO connection to the ryû. At all. Fact: Kacem is a deshi of Ishizuka sensei, who has menkyo kaiden in six of the nine ryu of the Bujinkan. Fact: Chris has NO knowledge of what kind of training and practice goes on in the Bujinkan for a deshi under a menko kaiden holder. Fact: Chris Parker is no authority in any way on information or knowledge in any of the nine ryûha of the Bujinkan. Fact: Chris makes it sound as if he is an authority on the subject whereas others participating in this thread are not. This is obviously not the case. Chris knows a lot about classical japanese martial arts, and no one can take that away from him. But he cannot make claims to know things about the ranking structure of the ryu in the Bujinkan. Chris, it is true that a piece of paper means nothing in itself. I don't think this needs to be mentioned. But if you think that someone who has stayed with Hatsumi sensei since the beginning and has menkyo kaiden in the ryu of which the Bujinkan is comprised means nothing (which you said), then your opinion is obviously clouded because of your own lack of connection to the ryu. And as far as learning the specific ryuha themselves, again you have no idea at all what kinds of transmissions are happening from Hatsumi sensei and from the menkyo kaiden holders. Why do you keep pretending that you are an authority on the transmission of the Bujinkan ryuha? Really? How do you know this?
In my view there is a strong correlation between those who were training with Soke a long time ago & received menkyo kaiden and their skill/knowledge This, I think, is a very important point for us to consider However, there are shihan who started later & therefore may or may not have menkyo kaiden (I genuinely don't know) who have, in my view, surpassed some of those who received menkyo kaiden back in the day I think that this dynamic is important to appreciate too
Before we go any further, I'm going to point something out. Nothing I do is in any way an attempt to "justify" anything about our organisation, my being a part of it, our separation from the Bujinkan, or anything similar. The sheer arrogance shown that it is always thought that that is the reasoning behind my discussion of things like the relevance of Menkyo Kaiden is incredible, frankly, not to mention completely at odds with any comments I might actually make. So if anyone does have such thoughts, or beliefs, I'd recommend you set them aside, as they really don't have any place in anything I say. The thing is that it's a false connection. It's the same type of reasoning as saying that the Science teacher is better because he has a Maths degree. Sure, it can have some cross-over, particularly when dealing in physics, but science is a different subject to mathematics. And that's the point. Menkyo Kaiden is only relevant to the Ryu it pertains to, and, as a result, has no bearing on position within the Bujinkan, or the ability to teach, or knowledge of, the Bujinkan or Budo Taijutsu. Now, if the question was "what is the relevance of Menkyo Kaiden to the Ryu?", that would be a different answer. But relevance to the Bujinkan? Nothing at all. The argument that the holders of Menkyo in some or many of the Ryu are "better", or that there is a "clear and discernible difference", and holding that that is because of the Menkyo Kaiden, is a false reasoning. It's a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc, and it's made by people who simply don't understand what Menkyo Kaiden applies to. I'm not saying that the Menkyo holders aren't better at all... what I'm saying is that the Menkyo has nothing to do with that, as it pertains to the Bujinkan itself, as they can only pertain to particular Ryu. Again, you're making a false connection. Ideally, yeah, Menkyo Kaiden holders will be the better performers... but that's not necessarily the case on either side of the lines... you can have better performers without it, and you can have Menkyo holders who don't have the same level of movement. Again, this isn't that that is the case with the particular individuals being talked about, just that thinking the measuring stick is Menkyo Kaiden is to not understand what you're measuring. Hi Darren. To be clear, I never left... there was just little reason to post based on the discussions that were being had. But I was always still around. Firstly, no, I don't agree with your assertion, nor with the the implication, but I really don't want to get into that. More to the point, you seem to be missing what I'm actually saying. I'm not saying that the Menkyo Kaiden are worthless, I'm saying that they don't really have any relevance to the idea of being a Bujinkan teacher, teaching Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I do have to say, though, I find it incredibly odd that so many members of the Bujinkan are happy to say that the only ranking really available to them means nothing... what does that mean the training means? After all, ranking is really there to demonstrate progression through the training, as well as provide a form of hierarchy as to who is more reliable to listen to (and yeah, I get that that's not the way it's worked out... but without that simple reason for ranking to exist, why bother having it at all?).... Frankly, if that's your belief about Hatsumi (and I'm being clear here, it's not my opinion or belief about him and his actions), why would you stay in an organisation headed by such an individual? Staying under the direction of someone who has so little regard or concern for your progress and development? Honestly, I can think of a few reasons, and none of them are good enough unless there is a real self esteem issue going on, and the only value you hold for yourself is based on your place in his organisation.... Yeah.... again, this is what I mean when I talk about false connections. Where, in that clip, is any demonstration of the benefits of being Menkyo Kaiden? Let's pick a Ryu, shall we? Pick, say, Koto Ryu. Who there has Menkyo (or had, at that time) in Koto Ryu, and how did it manifest itself differently to the other practitioners? Actually, yeah, that's pretty close. Why would you think it would need to be any more complicated than that? And I haven't argued the quality of the individuals at all... in fact, quite the opposite... but their abilities wasn't the question. Simple words can carry a great weight, don't stress about it. Being a part of it doesn't make you it's representative. Please. For one thing, I do train in the arts that are being discussed, just not in your organisation. But even if I didn't, knowing what Menkyo Kaiden actually means and applies to tells me what the reality is. And as far as the questions/answers with 47MartialMan there, are you now dictating what can and can't be asked in the thread, and who can be involved? Really? I never left, Will. I just didn't really see the point in arguing with the more vocal (and rather insular and misguided) membership. Believe me, the non-critiques and lack of recognition of the clips didn't "drive me away" at all... Ha, I'm writing in an "authoritative" style, yet you decide to take issue against my comments (without actually being able to argue against what I've said, as, frankly, you're one of the biggest offenders of not having a clue about things like Menkyo Kaiden, Will) by posting things all labeled "Fact"? Cute. Let's look at your "facts", then. Yeah, I've never met him, at this point... however, I have read a lot of his writings, seen the videos of him, had his point of view expressed through your (and others) posts, and more. But here's the thing... you're saying this to counter my comment that Kacem doesn't hold Menkyo Kaiden in any of the Ryu (stated as far as I know), after which I asked if there was an update... so, is there one? Or was I right? If I was right, what's your point? Just an attempt to discredit correct information? And if I'm wrong, say so. But I don't think I am.. or you would have stated so. My point is that this is less a "fact", and more an attempt to discredit without needing the tiny detail of my being wrong. Nice try. Well, I've seen a lot more video of him, in a wider range of contexts and environments (covering a larger range of material from a larger range of Ryu), than has been seen of me... but, of course, my level of understanding of many things can be drawn from a clip of me teaching part of a single Bo kata from a line not part of the Bujinkan, not recognised by Bujinkan members, whereas Kacem's understanding can't be ascertained from many times more relevant and more plentiful examples. Again, cute. Now, that's where we start to get a little more technical... there's an argument to be made that I have just as much (or just as little) connection as you do, Will. Which isn't "none", but it's not as much as you seem to think you have.... Wow, good fact! You know, it's actually pretty much exactly what I said myself earlier in the thread... and this has relevance how? Well, let's be fair here, Will, Kacem seems to be a rather unique case in the Bujinkan, especially the way you describe it (well, RP might suggest that he's doing the same thing), but the simple little fact that you're missing is the question of what is being taught isn't really a question. How it's being taught may differ (hardly unusual for a Bujinkan school, no matter the level or location, really), but unless Kacem is being taught (and ranked/licenced in) specific Ryu-ha, separate to the others and divorced from the principles and concepts of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, then this really has no relevance. And, if he is, then that's got nothing to do with the idea of learning under a Bujinkan Shihan, or even of learning Bujinkan martial arts at all. Ah, see, you messed up there, Will. That's an opinion, not a fact. Proper use of language does help... and seriously, you're fine to have that opinion. But, frankly, I've read your posts as well, I've read Kacem's book, his interviews, his articles, and more, I've seen you move, and bluntly, I'd trust me more than I'd trust you. When it comes to the Bujinkan as an organisation, okay, you might get a slight edge.. but the Ryu-ha? Honestly, mate, you've got a way to go... you've learnt them all under the influence of the others, which has muddled things up for you. Seriously? I can't claim to know anything about the ranking structure of the Ryu? Dude, I really don't know where to start with this... the only aspects of the Ryu-ha ranking that I've dealt with has been using the terminology applied by the Bujinkan members, so if it's wrong, that ain't on me... (but, for the record, I'm actually pretty aware of the different ranking structures of the different Ryu, so I'm good there). And again you show that you don't really get what the argument is, or how Menkyo Kaiden can or cannot be applied. The exact sequence was as follows: Me:"Honestly, I think the biggest issue is that those who keep looking to Menkyo Kaiden in the Bujinkan really have no clue about what it means, or how it does or doesn't apply. At least, those who do on the forums, that is..." Matt: "OK, what does MK in the Bujinkan mean?" Me: "Nothing." Note, very carefully now, that there is no implication that those who have Menkyo Kaiden don't mean anything, or that they don't have value or skill, just that, in the Bujinkan (as in, relating to Bujinkan as a martial arts organisation), Menkyo Kaiden in specific Ryu doesn't actually have any meaning. You could be a phenomenal practitioner or teacher without any Menkyo Kaiden licences, or you could be a holder of one or two... but would that mean that if you had, say, Menkyo in Gyokko Ryu and Togakure Ryu, then your ability when performing Takagi Yoshin Ryu kata suffers? Or is there an overall skill level that goes beyond specific Ryu? One more time, though, those that are championing the idea of Menkyo Kaiden being some sort of relevant ranking really don't get what Menkyo Kaiden are about. I really have to make clear, though, that those saying that Menkyo Kaiden holders tend to be, or even are, the superior practitioners is fine, but those that rely on the Menkyo Kaiden as their reasoning and support for why they see those practitioners in that way don't have much of a clue. It really is more that the senior, and most respected practitioners and teachers happen to be the Menkyo holders, not the other way around. Which is what I was saying to Matt at the beginning of this post (well, what he was answering, anyway). Please. Despite many, many, many calls for any kind of evidence, anecdote, story, sighting, or similar, there has been nothing to indicate anything is going on behind the scenes that is hidden from all others. The bizarre conspiracy theories that are offered, along with the usual "well, you aren't in all the Bujinkan dojos in the world, how do you know what's happening or not?" is really an incredibly weak argument, and one that is not supported by any other than some internet folk who seem to insist on such fantasies being reality. Unless you have something to back it up, you really don't have an argument. The same question could be asked of you, Will.. why do you keep thinking you have to save people from the poor information I keep bringing, especially when you can't actually provide any arguments against it? Besides, I'm not an authority on the transmission of the Ryu, nor even of the Ryu themselves. What I am is a practitioner of the methods of the various Ryu who has a keen interest in them and their exploration (divorced from the entity that is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu), as well as other classical Japanese martial traditions. Because I know what Menkyo Kaiden applies and relates to, Will. Remember? Now, is it possible that you misread what I wrote? If so, I'll try to rephrase.... What I was saying was that the defining factor that makes those senior instructors so much better is more related to their continuous time training with Hatsumi and each other in the Bujinkan, rather than to do with a ranking in a separate skill set/area of knowledge. Dude, it's me saying that they are very good examples, highly skilled, incredibly knowledgable etc, I'm just saying that the Menkyo Kaiden are not the reason. It's just that those that have that level of skill etc happen to be Menkyo holders. I do have to wonder how it gets to the point where I'm supporting the senior practitioners of the Bujinkan, and suggesting that their level of knowledge and skill is attainable, and I'm still being attacked because I'm not part of the organisation? Hmm....
I argue these 2 gentlemen can very well be said to represent the linages. Not sure what you ment by choosing me or Will but if you like I can draw a new line for you with me and Will in it. Im not one who likes to use position to argue (like many others here do) but I could if I wanted. Regards / Skuggvarg
Of what Menkyo Kaiden means? Yes. By understanding what Menkyo Kaiden means, really. This idea that such a concept is unique to the Bujinkan is really out of whack with reality, you realize... That's his position in relation to the Ryu, and his part in the lineage, which is very different from saying that he is representative of the lineage (in terms of it's authenticity). This is not a slight on Kacem, Ishizuka, or anyone else, just a statement of the way things work. Please. Again, this is not what I was saying. My point is that Kacem is not who you would look to as representative of the authenticity, and in that case, representative of the Ryu itself. That position is held by the head of the Ryu only, regardless of the skills of those within the lineage. You seem to be missing what is actually being said....
So, where is your direct connection to the art? Who is your source? Wayne Roy? Or various people from the different x-kan that you know, who share information with you? Or are you deshi to someone in the chain of transmission? I don't think I, nor RP, have ever disputed that it is pretty unique to be a deshi to people like Ishizuka sensei or Seno sensei for example. Do you always have to be licensed or ranked in a specific ryuha to learn a specific ryuha? (From what I gathered by what you told me earlier, you yourself are not ranked or licensed in any of the ryuha you are practicing. Or has that changed?) So you think that Hatsumi sensei did not learn Gyokko Ryu under the influence of Koto Ryu, and/or the other way around? Or Togakure Ryu? You think that having been in one family for several generations they don't influence each other? And, on a side note, have you learned any of the ryuha as a completely separate entity? Under whom? So, where did you learn about the different ranking structures of the different ryu? I will completely shut up if you tell me your source. You do not even have to provide any proof. Heck, I'll make it even easier for you - you don't even have to provide a name. Just a a description of the person. For example, "he is a person who has trained in the ryuha under Soke for several centuries, and even though I am not in the same organization, I am a close buddy with him and he has given me a lot of information". Or similar. This, I agree with. The piece of paper itself means nothing. I can agree with that as well. I don't think it's hidden. It's rather plain and simple. The practice is obviously different for a guy who comes to Japan every year for dojo hopping and can barely stand in ichimonji, than for a guy who has through dedication and practice reached a deshi relationship with a shihan. Under whom? In that case I apologize for the misunderstanding, as I agree with what you wrote above. A menkyo kaiden in itself means nothing, and even historically has been given out for various other reasons than skill.
We're back to this level of inquiry, are we? We left the Bujinkan, therefore everything we learnt over twenty years is wiped out, because you guys have changed everything... you punch with your little finger sticking out now, and do Jodan Uke with your feet, that kind of thing? My direct connection to the art is that it is the art I train and teach, Will. What we don't have is a direct connection to the current head of the Ryu or the Bujinkan. But then, we're not claiming to be Bujinkan... nor are we claiming to teach (and rank in) the various Ryu... just to teach what we learnt and earned teaching licence in. The sooner you accept that that is both reality and legitimate, the easier this will be, as you won't have to keep covering the same ground in an effort to discredit anything said, whether you agree with it or not. I mean, in the last post, you said that I am knowledgable about classical Japanese martial arts, and no-one could take that away from me, but then tried to imply that I couldn't have any knowledge of the specific classical arts I've spent the last 20 years training and researching. Seriously, the Bujinkan arts are their own, unique arts, but they aren't that unique or different... so you really can't have it both ways. You seem to have missed the point, Will. And, again, you seem to have missed the point. Leaving off what you're referring to here, when it comes to teaching the Bujinkan arts, there is one ranking that is required (for the Bujinkan, let's be clear on that), and that is the rank of Godan. At that point, you can become a member of the Shidoshi-kai, and become a teacher. Realistically, that's your equivalent of Menkyo Kaiden, as it affords complete authority to teach the art. And, in this sense, my teacher earned that ranking and licence. Whether you like our approach or not doesn't really matter, and is largely irrelevant to anything in this discussion. After all, the question was what Menkyo Kaiden means in relation to teaching Bujinkan, and your attempt to turn that into another attack on me is rather pitiful, frankly. And, yeah, your earlier post was nothing but a personal attack, bringing up a clip that has nothing to do with any of my comments, posting opinion as "fact", and so on... I can counter it all, so I'm not that worried, but it doesn't make you look good... or like you have much of an actual argument... and are just wanting to tear me down. Kukishinden Ryu? Takagi Yoshin Ryu? Should they look like Gyokko and Koto? Within the Koryu community, it's generally highly frowned upon to be training in more than one system at a time, as you end up not actually doing any of them; instead, you become a "generic" Koryu practitioner, without actually having the ability to adopt the real heart of any system at all. Those that do train more than one tend to have a single primary art... and only engage in the second when thoroughly grounded in the first. The Bujinkan is very much a case of this "generic" performance, from Hatsumi on down. Now, in this case, that's not an attack, as that's exactly what Hatsumi wants it to be... Bujinkan martial arts, not the individual Ryu-ha. But what it means is that bits and pieces of one get mixed in with aspects of another, and mechanics that are individual are shared, and so on. With some of the arts, such as your examples of Gyokko and Koto (and Togakure), from their history, that's to be expected... but Kukishinden and Takagi should look nothing like those two. Thing is, whenever I've seen any Bujinkan member do them, they do. And, if Menkyo Kaiden is awarded, then the other arts shouldn't have any influence in there at all (or, really, as little as possible).... and this generic approach is another major reason that Menkyo Kaiden isn't really relevant at all for the Bujinkan. Studied separately, yes. Learnt as individual entities, yes. Under my instructors, and with my personal research. However, I wouldn't class it as "learning the Ryu-ha" themselves, so much as learning the individual methods of the the Ryu-ha. I'll understand if you don't quite get that. From examination of multiple sources, up to and including the heads of various lines (through people with personal contact, others that formerly had personal contact, and, of course, the material put out). There are some that I get information on the Takagi lineages from, some that I get information on the Kukishin lineages from, and so on. Some are friends, some are close friends, and some are acquaintances. I don't like relying on a single source, even if that source is Mr Roy, or Hatsumi (and there are definite reasons for that last one). See, I wish you wouldn't agree with me while missing the point all at the same time... it's got nothing to do with the idea of "the piece of paper means nothing", Will. Right. Here's the big problem, though, and it's been present since, well, since Kacem started being discussed at least. There seems to be this belief that learning in a "Koryu" fashion, with the related ranking (Menkyo Kaiden) is somehow going to produce better practitioners. I will say this plainly... that there are some practitioners who show more skill, precision, power, who have better execution, cleaner movement, and all associated good things, is in no way any indication of such a radical difference in training methodologies. Being dedicated, regardless of whether it is Koryu-style training, regardless of the ranking system being applied, will yield greater results. The Menkyo Kaiden connection has no basis in reality other than simple co-incidence. I'll put it another way... if Ishizuka was the exact same person, with the exact same training, starting at exactly the same time, and with the exact same dedication, learning things the exact same way, but Hatsumi had already stopped issuing Menkyo licences, and had completely changed to Dan ranks, would that mean that Ishizuka would be worse than he is now with his Menkyo Kaiden ranking? Would his knowledge of the Bujinkan, it's methods, histories, principles, skills etc, be any different? Any worse? Less valuable? Would his ability to produce a student like Kacem be any less? Would Kacem be any different? Frankly, the answer is no. Now, the only way the Menkyo Kaiden could enter into it would be if Ishizuka was teaching only Gyokko Ryu (for example), rather than Bujinkan. And, if we take that hypothetical, then the Bujinkan ranking is taken out of the equation, and a lot of the principles of Bujinkan movement is removed as well, and the resultant student would be very different to a Bujinkan trained student, even if both were trained to the same level. But my point is that if the Menkyo Kaiden ranking has relevance, then the Bujinkan one doesn't... and if the Bujinkan rank is the important one (again, what is on the ranking certificates for your answer there), then the Menkyo Kaiden is irrelevant. It's like talking about your school grades in two different subjects... you might get two similar grades, but they aren't actually related to each other except in that you earned both of them. You don't automatically get an A in Maths just because you got a B+ in Chemistry. I'm really finding it hard to make it any clearer than that. Mr Roy, which you know. Here's the thing... do you get the distinction of "practitioner of the methods of the various Ryu", as opposed to "training in the Ryu"? I choose my words carefully, and specifically, you realize. And, again, you agree with me by missing the point. I am not saying that a Menkyo Kaiden means nothing at all. Just that it doesn't mean anything in regards to the Bujinkan. It does for the individual Ryu, but not for the Bujinkan. The problem is you seem to think they're the same thing.
No I didn't say you could or could not post, I just said your answers were somewhat meaningless. No the equivalent of our Menkyo Kaiden is Menkyo Kaiden. The rank of Godan and the Shidoshi Kai are quite meaningless to me. But the rank of Godan is very 'meh'. I'm coming from a perspective of hundreds, probably close to a thousand hours of training with MK holders in the arts, and don't value the rank of Godan nearly as much as you seem to. You didn't learn it to the point where you got MK, you are likely not to be doing it perfectly, since everybody is still working on the stuff we learn, not stopping at a meaningless rank and claiming to be a teacher.
Well, I think I've made my point pretty clear, but here goes... Nothing has changed. Just as there were a lot of Bujinkan members when Wayne Roy was active, a lot of people who were close to Hatsumi sensei in a certain way, it's the same now. I think the issue is whether or not there ever was any kind of transmission of the ryu to Wayne Roy, or yourself. I agree with that. What I dispute are your countless efforts to claim what does not exist in the ryû, which would somehow imply that you have anything close to a full knowledge of the ryu. While in reality, the knowledge comes from a former member of the Bujinkan who was just that... a member of the Bujinkan. There are lots of members in the Bujinkan. But there are just a few I would go to for knowledge of the ryuha. No? Why should they? However, that doesn't mean that Takamatsu sensei's knowledge and skill in, say Gyokko and Koto ryu, didn't influence his Takagi Yoshin Ryu, for example. While I would be cautious of claiming to know exactly what Hatsumi sensei wants or not (unlike you), I would say that it might be true regarding the Bujinkan as an organization. But we are talking about the ryuha. I don't. Not at all. Okay. If you think so. So it's just a coincidence that a top deshi of Ishizuka sensei has more insight, skill and knowledge in the ryuha than a student of Richard van Donk. Okay. But HOW could Ishizuka sensei have that exact same training with your example??? It's literally impossible, because that is not the reality of how it was. Your example is absurd. Ishizuka sensei's history is as it is. No need for hypothetical alternate universes. You are talking of a theoretical situation that has no basis in reality. This would require that Mr. Roy accurately learned the methods of the various Ryu. Under whom did he do that?
I'd question whether or not my answers were "meaningless", Matt... considering my background and understanding of this topic, regardless of the attempts made to discredit said background... You're kidding, yeah? Bujinkan rank, a Bujinkan teaching rank, and the Bujinkan teaching licence mean nothing to you, but a rank unrelated to the Bujinkan is important to you? I'm actually struggling to find a way to express how divorced from reality that is... Look, I get that the senior instructors, the ones that hold Menkyo in some of the Ryu, are the ones that you look to, and really, that's great, and more power to you. But you've just said that you don't actually hold the actual ranking system of your organisation, the only real standard within it, the only real authority bestowed within it, in any real regard at all, instead choosing to afford meaning to something that doesn't have any real meaning when it comes to your learning the Bujinkan. Someone could potentially be a Menkyo holder in, say, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, but hold no rank in the Bujinkan, and you'd learn from them, and accept that what they were teaching you was Bujinkan? I never said different there... there are Godans and there are Godans, really.... Who said I value it? All I said was that it was the rank where you were able to become a teacher. That's all. If anything, that shows the value that Hatsumi places on it, not me. And, again, you've got the Menkyo Kaiden thing the wrong way round. The teachers you've spent time with are at the top level, no question on that, but it's not because of their Menkyo Kaiden licences. Such things really don't enter into it unless you are learning the specific Ryu that they are a licence holder of divorced from everything else. And, in that case, you wouldn't be learning Bujinkan from them, so the Bujinkan rank (theirs and yours) would be the irrelevant thing. I will say this, though... Menkyo Kaiden is not necessarily a teaching licence. In fact, in most cases, a teaching licence is separate. As a result, the only way a Menkyo holder could have any difference is if they are granted authority to teach it by Hatsumi... so you'd need to ask him what he has authorized with the licences. This is another detail that seems to be missing from a lot of the understanding presented here. Seriously? I'll say it again, then. At Godan, you are able to become a teacher. That is not a meaningless rank... in fact, it could be said to be one of the very few ranks in the Bujinkan that actually has any meaning (value, or worth, is another matter... and far more subjective). At that point, no, you're not perfect. But as Menkyo Kaiden doesn't exist for the Bujinkan (you can't get Menkyo Kaiden in the Bujinkan itself, as a separate entity), and Menkyo Kaiden would signify that you've got all you need to to pass the art on, then it could be considered almost equivalent, as similar authority can be conferred at that point. In other words, the idea of "you didn't learn it to the point of Menkyo Kaiden" is a false requirement, as it doesn't exist for the Bujinkan.
A lot of back and forth is going on as usual but there are a few basic points that need to be highlighted. Menkyo kaiden in the ryu that make up the Takamatsuden do reflect a certain level of mastery. The original Japanese students of Hatsumi sensei that teach these arts professionally have achieved this level in several of the arts. The early foreigners who came to Japan for varying lengths of time, stayed for various lengths of time, understood Japanese to varying levels of proficiency, and capitalized on their position as being unique at the time(for having had contact with Hatsumi sensei); have our respect as trailblazers but leave much to be desired as both teachers and role models.
