MMA = Street Effective Techniques?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Thomas, Dec 21, 2004.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    This month’s issue (Feb ’05) of Black Belt Magazine has a really nice article on the favorite competition techniques of Lion’s Den fighter Guy Metzger. I like the article and think the write up and pictures and such are really good. I also like his choice of techniques and the message that everyone needs to develop their own arsenal based on their attributes.

    Here’s what got me thinking though… in some of the techniques, the author mentions that the technique is good in the ring or “on the street”, implying that the skills shown here are street practical (which they may or may not be).

    If I go to a MMA school, how much “practical” street self defence should I be expecting to learn?

    If I go by what “it says in the tin”, I expect to be paying money to learn techniques that are proven to work in the ring under sport MMA conditions. If I could afford to go to the Lion’s Den, I don’t think I’d want to spend my time working on street scenarios when I could be training up for my next UFC or other MMA event.

    Should MMA schools advertise street self defence if they are not specifically teaching it as a program?
     
  2. Tyrant MMA

    Tyrant MMA New Member

    I think there are crossover techniques obviously, but as far as my view on MMA training goes they should be treated seperatly.

    I have tryed to learn mma in a street orientated environment but found there was not a good balance of Ring/cage skills and street NHB stuff. usually 75% - 25% in favour of street.

    If I was to depend on that class structure alone then I would be screwed in competition but ok in the street.

    I tend to assume that when people look to train in mma they are focused on the sport. For street I think you have to have a differant mindset to put certain things into practice, as you will have to be more aware of your surroundings etc.
     
  3. gedhab

    gedhab Valued Member

    MMA is not purely street effective techniques and they involve alot of knowledge that is needed to beat skilled, trained fighters who are fighting in an MMA environment. There is a kind of narrow mind-set in the MMA which means that people are not reacting like they would on the street but instead, are specifically looking for hte takedowns, for the clinch, for the arm-bar etc. This is not down to the practitioner but down to the fact that MMA rules/scenario is actually just as limited as other comps although they portray otherwise.
     
  4. Tyrant MMA

    Tyrant MMA New Member

    I have to disagree in that MMA is alot less restrictive than most other competitions. Yes we do train to abide by the rules set out by whatever promotions we are fighting in, but this would be true of any sport.

    In my opinion MMA has nothing to do with street fighting. One is a controlled and safe sporting medium and the other an illogical barbaric nightmare.

    I train myself to fight in the ring and I have my feet and my brain to keep me safe on the street.
     
  5. gedhab

    gedhab Valued Member

    maybe less restrictive but nontheless restrictive by the very nature of it being a tournament with rules, regulations and ways of doing things in that particular environment.
     
  6. redsandpalm

    redsandpalm shut your beautiful face

    Yeah I think that MMA is a fine sporting competition and doesn't need to pass itself off as being completely 'real'. I suspect it largely comes down to $$$ because most people starting want to be able to beat up all street adversaries as opposed to tapping out a skilled fighter in a seriously tactical and technical match. In any competition run at that high a level, anyone who wants to do well has to solely concentrate on being the best under that rule set. To do anything else would be a waste of their time (from an MMA point of view). Plus, assuming you've got the brains not to get into uneccessary fights just because you train, you're still going to be better off in a real fight than you were before you started training. So anyway, my opinion would be that 'no' they shouldn't advertise as street defense classes, but I think that from a marketing point of view you have to accept that they will continue to do that.
     
  7. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Would somebody mind explaining to me why breaking somebody's arm by holding it between your legs and squeezing isn't thtweet l3thal?
    My take is that sports styles are actually much more effective because they use rules and protective equipment to reduce the possibility of injury, leaving you open to attend to the serious business of learning how to fight.
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Actually KE, the direction I was hoping for the thread to take was:

    What do you think?
     
  9. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    The club I go to, the instructors do discuss "practical" self defence. They also have a separate self defence night. I think there are very solid grounds for advertising that you can learn self defence techniques in a sport style.
     
  10. Tyrant MMA

    Tyrant MMA New Member

    To answer your original question :)

    I don't think MMA and Street should be mixed in the same class, however if the instructor is capable then running a seperate class for self defence is a better idea.
     
  11. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    "Would somebody mind explaining to me why breaking somebody's arm by holding it between your legs and squeezing isn't thtweet l3thal?"

    Because if you are laying on the ground to do it, chances are matey's friend will be kicking you in the head.
     
  12. gedhab

    gedhab Valued Member

    Also, imagine dropping on to the hard concrete ground just to put an armbar on the guy who attacks you....your likely to end up hurting yourself! :rolleyes:
     
  13. redsandpalm

    redsandpalm shut your beautiful face

    If I went along to a club who advertised themselves as street self defense I would be expecting alot of emphasis on:
    ]different street situations (mugging/group of teens looking for trouble/etc.)
    ]making everyday objects into quick weapons (keys/computer monitor power cable/etc.)
    ]street tactics (leaving parties/clubs with at least one friend etc.)
    ]first aid (including treating knife injuries/disembowlement/ etc.)
    ]how to hold yourself
    ]what to/what not to say to a potential aggressor
    etc etc I think you all get the idea.
    Street defense has so little to do with fighting techniques. I would also expect the instructor to be more than just an MA/MMA instructor, preferably someone who works/previously worked locally as a bodyguard or a police officer working in an area of interest (i.e. a cop that used to patrol city streets in the early hours of the mornings when the drunks are coming out of the clubs). Basically someone with a good knowledge of the typical local street threats.

    If a club isn't doing this, then they are only teaching a martial art, or sport or whatever. It just so happens that that sport may be useful to the student if they get into a fight.

    @Knight Errant: You're absolutely right that people shouldn't just dismiss MMA moves because they are used in a sporting context, but I wanted to bring up this extract from an interview with Tito Ortiz in OpenYourEyes Magazine (http://www.oyemag.com/tito.html):

    But have there been times when you were forced to retaliate?
    The last time I touched somebody I choked him out in about a minute in a half. He hit my friend in the head with a bottle. He tried to come at me with the bottle. I ducked it and I snapped him down into the ground and I got him in a front guillotine…I choked him out unconscious. His buddies hit me with a couple of bottles in the head. He was unconscious. I let him go. I turned around and the guys were like, “Dude, it’s cool, it’s cool. We’re sorry, we’re sorry.”

    Now I know that I wasn't there, and it is Tito Ortiz so maybe I'm just being silly about this... but if someone spent one and a half minutes in the position he just described, while me and a bunch of my buddies went to work on him (especially with bottles), then he'd be a lucky man to come out alive and without serious disfigurement. Taking into account that this guy is at the top of the game, and he made this kind of a tactical error (and I'll come straight out and say that it was a tactical error and he was lucky the guys didn't know what they were doing), what does this say about the ordinary guys who just train this as a hobby and aren't the best of the best?

    I guess what I'm saying is that if you train specifically for one environment, you may be a dangerous fighter, but you're not automatically an expert in street defense.

    @Gedhab, I've been in fights. Hurting myself by falling on the hard concrete was never a huge concern of mine at the time. Getting back up before I got beaten to pulp was.

    @RobP, I've sparred with pro grapplers before. Those guys will put you in an arm-bar in about two-seconds (in a street situation you have to assume they'll break it too). The problem, as always, is the guys who aren't pro's.

    @Thomas, If I went into an MMA school, I wouldn't automatically look for or expect any street self defense training. I'd probably have come straight from watching UFC, having decided 'hey I'd like to do that'.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2004
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    (bold face added - Thomas)

    I agree with you here... and this is something that other "sport" arts do as well. Not only do they teach sporting techniques, but also show how to apply the same moves (with modifications) in a self defence situation (I'm thinking things like Taekwondo and Karate).


    I like the idea of separating classes based on the desired outcomes (e.g. tournament success, self defence, meditation, etc.) and teaching them to apply the basic skills of the style in different situations.

    However, if you visit a school billed as a "MMA school" (no other info given) , how much expectation for learning realistic street self defence do you have entering the door?
     
  15. Tyrant MMA

    Tyrant MMA New Member

    good post
     
  16. Tyrant MMA

    Tyrant MMA New Member

    I would expect nothing other than pure sports orientated training.
     
  17. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Hey Thomas,

    First of all, no program should advertise "self defense" training unless they are specificially teaching self defense. And by teaching I mean regularly working it into the cirriculumn, or as you suggest offering specific classes in it. This goes for any program regardless of flavor.

    As two what consititutes self defense, I think Redsandpalm came up with some good starting ideas. First and foremost, it should be structured to deal with the most common threats found within that particular area.

    As for what to expect from a general MMA school? I'd expect to learn sport fighting. However, if they were also advertising self defense, I'd expect to learn something practical.

    As to the general self defense content of MMA. I think it's as high as any other martial art. Striking is a key component of most MMA programs and a key aspect of self defense. Check out records on Sherdog. There are a lot of matches won by KO.

    Where I do think that most MMA have an advantage is in the high level of resistance training. Personally, I tend to think that is far more useful, for most SD situations, than any particular technique. Of course TMA programs that do resistance training have this advantage as well.
    - Matt
     
  18. Trent Tiemeyer

    Trent Tiemeyer Valued Member

    MMA, as a sport, is only part of the equation of a streetfight. But it's a big part. No other martial arts system out there spars with MMA's level of freedom or contact. Most striking styles neglect the clinch, much less grappling. Most grappling styles neglect practical striking.

    Tito Ortiz did what anyone else on here would have done, and that is revert to instinct when the pressure was on. His skillset is wrestling. He has learned to strike, but every time the pressure goes up, he goes for the takedown.

    In addition to MMA fighting (which is the highest level of freedom legally available), I would definitely recommend a comprehensive weapons curriculum, awareness, avoidance, and verbal deescalation techniques.

    The fighting aspect is just one piece of the puzzle. Fighting just makes you a good fighter. The rest of the puzzle makes you a smart person, which in turn means you get to keep your fights in the ring.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I agree with this to a degree... but I think with the advent of MMA showing how important these ideas are that many styles are following the trend. I don't think you need to be "in MMA" to get realistic training with that level of freedom or contact. You do have to be picky about where you train.

    Wait a second... are you guys implying that the way you train might be more important than the name of the style?
     
  20. Trent Tiemeyer

    Trent Tiemeyer Valued Member

    Your dojo does not need to have a big MMA banner and an autographed 8x10 glossy of Royce Gracie to be a good school.

    The glossy can also be of Dan Gable.:D

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2004

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