Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by nekoashi, Nov 5, 2011.
Hellz yeah. Gun defense. Haha
And nobody mentioned the clerk... That guy kept it cool at gun point and even grabbed the robber from behind once he tried to flee... ccc...
Think that was pretty stupid.
I agree... I would never do that... But he did... MMA guys jumped in... And at the end MMA guys get commended and he doesn't?! Wonder why...
Well from our view they deserve the kudos and the clerk was an idiot. We know better, you just don't grab a guy with a gun. It is as it should be, whether or not this is the reason we will probably never know. I do also wonder if this is the reason.
That was terrible!
They wrestled with a man holding a gun for over a minute, while he was still holding the gun the entire time!
And it took TWO professional MMA fighters more than a minute to restrain one man?
This could've gone very badly!
Well there you have it. It's the reality of it. Under strange new circumstances nobody does what they'd do from the armchair. If they were cops securing the gun would have been paramount. They're not cops - I don't think 99% of most people would have done any better. In fact they'd have done worse.
Everyone thinks it's so easy to take someone down... in theory yes. But in reality no. A single 150lb person full of fear can be a very hard deal to take down. Especially once they're amped up on adrenalin. I've seen old ladies being transported to hemodialysis spooked about being put into an ambulance and just clean shake off my partner who is around 215lbs and was a competent college wrestler. So the armchair finger wag is a bit funny.
As you can see the guy was still standing even with the fella riding from back mount. They should have flattened him out ASAP and secured the gun. It's hard to say what words went between the clerk and the grapplers.
Fear kicks in and you'd be surprised how much you forget. I've seen it do the craziest things to people that from the armchair don't make any sense... but a lot of what happens in robberies doesn't make any sense. Fact.
They got very lucky. I'm wondering if the guy still had the gun in his hand at the point he walks out of the office in front of the clerk. The clerk did keep a cool head. That worked to not escalate the situation. Where a gun involved that is the clever thing to do.
I'm not saying the MMA fighters did a bad job in restraining him....I just meant that it was stupid to wrestle with a man holding a gun. They didn't disarm him or immediately take him out....but instead wrestled with him for almost 2 minutes while he was still holding the gun. They are really lucky no one got hurt.
They should have let him walk I applaud the heroism involved but somebody could have lost their life over money that is insured, plus the assailant was on camera.
Well that's just it though isn't it... it never quite works out the way we think it will. It's much harder to immediately have all the issues under control when you first get on a scene. On top of which they're civilians not police officers trained to deal with such. Once they put his hands on him it was going to be a wrestling match. Part of it might be the grappler mentality. He went for the grapple instead of KO'ing the guy straight off. He said it himself that he should have KO'd the guy but didn't think about it until later. Why was that? Because he's not trained to KO people.... but to grapple. What you do on a daily basis has a lot to do with how you react.
I wonder what got said between the manager and the two grapplers. You might be surprised how much information doesn't get conveyed or doesn't register at the time of an event like this. I've seen it happen a lot in similar altercations. Though given that it's CCTV I don't think we'll ever know.
Two pertinent quotes regarding what was, and what should have been done are in the article linked:
So it seems that the gun was not in the robbers hands, so disarming wasn't really required (although if the guy reached for it in the bag, that may have been a different story), and the "armchair assessment" is something that even the guys involved agree with.
That said, due to time on doors, the aim the MMA guys seem to have gone in with is to subdue without injury (to the robber). In that case, well done to them. I can see a number of reasons to have that approach, although of course, in the reality of it, such things can go out the window pretty quickly, and I feel probably would have if the robber had put up much actual resistance, as he wasn't trying to hit them, just kinda keep pushing through their hold.
Dealing with more criminals in a direct manner ....
That was BAD-ASS! I wish more cops were like that.
I'm suspicious. I think the MMA fighters were his accomplices and while they were distracting the security dudes, their MMA accomplices were round the back, robbing the safe. Never trust an MMA fighter - them guys is sneaky and they love crime like mice love cheese...
OK, I'm joking, I'm joking.
Actually, that reminds me, for self defence situations I really envy guys who can grapple well. Having the option of restraining someone competently and keeping control of them without having to resort to striking them seems like a really useful skill and I've seen several similar videos to this one that support that assertion.
I think if I was a security guy of some kind, I would definitely prioritise training grappling over striking. I think I would be kinda lost if I found myself in a situation where I had to overpower someone but they didn't really warrant a smack in the face, or I thought striking them would escalate the situation - grappling skills at least seem to give you options in that situation.
Ah yes...well that changes everything. I missed that part
I hate have-a-go heros. Why is it people do martial arts and think they can police the streets. This sort of stuff should be left to the police. If you get involved in **** like this and you get hurt it is your own fault for trying to play police man. I remember that UFC guy, jon jones, restraining the crack-head for stealing the sat-nav. Why not just take the sat nav of him and let him go. From the picture, they had him in some crazy mma move which just seemed totall uneccessary considering there were two of them, both mma, and he was a crack head. That poor guy probably suffered enough. Big bullies. But really, they should not be playing police.
Welcome to MAP Hughesa
PLease remember we have a "family friendly" policy as regards langauge at MAP, so avoid swearing in your posts.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Its good to say, oh let them go or they shouldve done this/that. Thing is, you go into auto pilot when something like this happens.
Some dive in and help, others step back and watch. I've had well intentioned people join in and make things worse when I've had people on the ground and others who should have my back just stand and observe (grilling was given after).
@Hughesa, they were not 'policing' the streets, like some of these people who go around in costume (ie Dark Phoenix or whatever) but 2 guys who just happen to be at a certain place at a certain time, who are also trained in a form of unarmed combat.
The article also mentioned that the gun was already in the bag as well so there was no 'gun-kata' needed.
Also like Slip said when adrenaline etc kicks in, people get suprisingly strong. Once again, when my friend who is a Security for a large retailer (Lost Prevention Officer) he does MMA and is an OK grappler at 100kg. He got slightly embarrased when he chased down a 30yr old man who possible weighed 75-80kg and had difficulty getting him to the ground and keeping him there.
Jesus, not like I told someone to eff off. Get off your high horse. I bet you are the type of guy who feels he can demonstrate his martial arts skills on the loud, obnoxious group of guys who are swearing where there are children about. Don't get me wrong, I hate it when people swear a lot and especially in front of kids but I don't see a need to go beyond a polite request for them to stop. But, what the heck, you may not be that sort of guy, I sure hope not anyway.
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