Missed belt test(not enoughmoney) Help Please

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Hapkido Student, Aug 22, 2005.

  1. NewLearner

    NewLearner Valued Member

    Part of my point of view in this is due to my personal history. When I was growing up, my father owned a photography studio. He had the idea that he could make money by having lots of volume if he dropped his prices to the bare minimum. And he was always willing to give someone a break if they had a sob story. Unfortunately, none of his creditors were half so compassionate. Our family did without, a lot, due to that philsophy. Taking care of your customers or students while your kids suffer is not a way to do business.
     
  2. Mike71

    Mike71 Valued Member

    I think this is a complex issue.

    On one hand, I'm always confused when people expect MA instructors to teach for free. As has been stated many times in this thread already, they are providing a service which (hopefully) their students find to be valuable. It seems only reasonable that the instructor should be compensated for their time and knowledge.

    What is a reasonable level of compensation? Thats a hard question to answer. Here in Seattle, if I were working a full time job I would want to see about $35k salary a year BARE MINIMUM. I would have to LOVE the job to do it for that little, because with Seattle's cost of living I wouldn't be able to buy a house, and I'd probably have to have a house mate(s) in order to have enough money left over for car payments and/or any luxuries and that's without kids. To be able to really have a life, buy a house, afford to retire, etc. my salary would probably need to be closer to $60k/year and I think it quite reasonable for someone who is a real expert in their field (for example, a great MA instructor) to make $100k+/year in this area.

    On the other hand, in my experience, with MA instruction you almost never get what you pay for. I would say that quite frequently the more the school charges and the more "business like" the lower the quality of instruction.

    I'm sure there are many factors at work here. In some cases this is probably because the school was started by a business person not a qualified MA instructor. In another example that I witnessed, a knowledgeable instructor kept dumbing down his classes and making them less and less strenuous to attract and keep as many students as possible. Since the students didn't really know any better they kept paying for increasingly bad instruction. Sure, this is business and it was a sound business decision, but it meant he ended up running a McDojang. There are doubtless countless other causes.

    I'm quite happy to pay for instruction and most of the time I have been studying martial arts I have been willing to pay double what my instructors were charging for the service that they were providing. The problem has been that the people who were charging twice as much were mostly interested in money and not in teaching and a lot of the best teachers I've seen go out of business because they don't take the business aspects seriously enough. One of the best instructors I've ever seen has stopped teaching for financial reasons while one of his students is still teaching as far as I know(and operating the McDojang I mentioned above).

    One last note; earlier in this thread someone asked how often any of us have payed more money to keep a struggling school open. On two occasions I have done something of this sort - once I payed for six months of classes in advance because my Aikido club had unexpected expences and another time I payed my instructor many times his going rate for private lessons when I knew he was having cash flow problems. I was at least partially motivated to do this because I knew that they weren't in it for the money and that they would have let me (or any dedicated student) slide on their payments if in financial straits. I probably wouldn't have with a more commercial operation.

    --Mike
     
  3. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    1. Lose the 'tude. I know how to run a business, I was raised by a businessman, thanks. I am well aware of the various business concepts you guys are throwing around, and I'm telling you that (a) I don't agree and (b) my personal experience has shown me they are not true.

    2. I have attended 5 schools covering kickboxing and TKD, Kenpo, P'ai Lum, Isshin Ryu, and now Bai Kai Kung Fu. I have NEVER paid more than $4.50 USD per class. Right now I pay $2.00 USD per class. My ex? He only pays $4.50 USD per class.

    So that's SIX schools where the price is right and there aren't tons of extra fees. Seeing a pattern?

    3. Only once have I ever paid for testing, and that was $10 bucks to cover belts and certificates. My current school? I don't pay any testing fees. My ex's belt tests, from white to cho dan bo cost a whopping $150 USD for all 9 tests (wow, $16 USD per test). And did I mention his school is a member of the World TSD Association, where normally fees happen to be higher?

    Mom-and-Pop schools do exist. Heck, the Kenpo school was part of the Ed Parker system and we didn't get fleeced like this. Neither does my ex's school, and it's a member of the World TSD Association.

    Guess I'm just lucky I tend to choose the small schools as opposed to the chain schools where the bottom line is the almighty dollar.

    Believe me or don't, I don't care. But people wanted numbers, there you go, you got numbers based on what I've paid.

    Now, please, tell me that small Mom-and-pop schools don't exist and are doomed to failure (all the schools I listed except one are still open for business).
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Hmmm... the first 3 words are good ones and may apply both ways, no? ..... :love:

    I figured out our cost per lesson (including federation fees, etc) in another thread... take a look and see what "extortionists" we are:

    quoted and editted from http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=609072#post609072
     
  5. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    1. Do you charge $280 for four tests which may be required to go from Brown to Black? I think you said "no" to that one. I'd love to hear from some of the other folks on here what they think of charging a grand total of $1120 total to get your black belt.

    2. So far you seem to be in the minority on price checks, and you still charge for belts and tests. :p
     
  6. austinso

    austinso Valued Member

    Ah..you never actually *ran* a business...your *daddy* did...

    I didn't realize that "business acumen" was a genetic trait...

    I personally think that there is an obvious pattern...though undoubtedly not what you are rambling on about...

    It is clear that you just want things on the cheap...and you feel that you are entitled to it irrespective of the quality you are paying for. You want to pay the price of a Big Mac for a gourmet burger, and you wonder why no one will give you the time of day.

    Of course there are "mom-and-pop" schools, but odds are these are run by people who have *other means* to which they can support themselves. This is also why they teach at community centres, universities, where the overhead costs are minimal, because that gives them the ability to provide some service to the community at minimal cost to themselves.

    That is quite different than those masters who go out on a limb financially to devote to their student full time 24/7. These people are entitled to set up a fee structure that allows them to live a healthy life and raise healthy children.

    Now, my question to you is, if your master (do you even have one?) were to end up in financial difficulty, would you go out of your way to find the means to help them out? I can tell you that, out of the immense respect I have for my master, I would without hesitation, within the means that I have, because this is the least I can do for the amount of knowledge (eye-opening and life-changing), that he has imparted to me.

    As Dngruss quotes "You get what you pay for", and people get what they deserve in life.

    Austin

    P.S. If you all want to think of it in terms of history, masters and schools were often run under the favour and support of a lord/daimo. That is why there was no need to charge fees. Masters were taken care of and did not have to fear for their livelihood. This culture no longer exists, and the reason it does not is clearly exemplified by your posts.
     
  7. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Nope, wrong again! Sifu works MA full time. So did at least one of my other Senseis. Thanks for playing, here's a lovely parting gift!

    (That was about the only part of the post worth replying to).
     
  8. Hapkido Student

    Hapkido Student New Member

    Hello all,


    Well, today I went back to my Hapkido class and my master instructor taught me the techniques of the new belt, even though I didn't test. He said that I may take a double belt test if I'm up to it next testing period. In class today I had to demonstrate my old technique(the one I had for four month's...because of belt testing fee's) When I did the technique's they went together so smoothly effortlessly. It felt so natural to me. I am glad that I wasn't able to test, I'd rather do one technique a million time's and perfect it rather than advance to quickly & know 100 technique's rather then use 5 technique's and perfect them. When you think about it....Lindsay said belt rank's do matter....IMHO they don't.

    I mean no offense by this but, I've seen women & men in my class who are orange belt's who are better at Hapkido then the black belt's. Yes the black belter's know more technique's but the people who go home everyday and train for hour's on end after class just to get better are the one's who matter. I don't think "oh look this guy has a black belt, he must be EXCELLENT." When I first started taking HKD I trained harder then anyone else in my class. I stayed 2 hour's after class to taklk to my instructor, go out on the mat and practice, and stretch out. I had the last class of the day so my instructor stayed with me after class and trained with me.

    Then when I had to go home...I trained at home. I spent a few hour's on my kick's one day, the next day on my punche's, the next on my throw's, and the nesy day on my wrist locks and technique's. I bought ton's of equiptment that would help me in my progress. I ran, lifted weight's, trained and toned up my body for HKD. Then I'd go to class 1 hour early and stretch out before class and read a book on HKD and talked to my instructor. I trained in all my weaknesses. I had no belt but I was up there like I was a red belt. I think it's the training that matter's not the belt. BTW I still train like that....just a little toned down now that I have school and a job.



    I would like to thank everyone that replied to this post. I appreciate it. I read every word written here and I am greatly thankfull for everyone's replies. Even though there's alot of controversy(Spelling?) I find it great that so many people feel so many way's about this subject. Thanks everyone. Please keep them comming. Im on MAP everyday and I will reply as much as possibel to update anyone. Thank's again everyone. Keep them comming. :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2005
  9. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greetings

    I personally charge $50.00 per test 9 tests in all to BB equals $450.00 or about $1.00 per lesson if you figure it that way over a 4/5 years period.

    Seriously folks who thinks that's a rip off?

    Some people are plain old CHEAP! Maybe we need to pay them to come to class. ;)
     
  10. NewLearner

    NewLearner Valued Member

    So, how many students does your Sifu have? Just to make $30,000 a year, he would need about 50 students 6 days week. And of course, that is absolutely no expenses. Are his classes in his garage or back yard? If not, I imagine that he has to pay some type of rent. If he has even a small permanent site around here, he is going to pay probably that much or more for his rent. What about lights? And he is paying for your belts out of that $2? Unless he has so many students that it would be very hard to devote any time to them, I don't see how he can have that low of rates. And if he has that many students, then he is hardly mom and pop business.

    In our case, I pay $400 a month for classes. I know that is high, but it covers 5 people with classes 6 days a week. I know his rent is high due to where he is located. (Convenience has a cost.) I could be in class up to 24 hours a week, if I wanted to. Basically, I am paying a monthly fee that comes out to $3.33 per day per person. Testing fees $120 for all five of us. I can tell you that I certainly can't join a decent gym for those prices and the idea of getting a personal trainer for anywhere near that is ridiculous.
     
  11. dngrruss

    dngrruss Valued Member

    There is nothing wrong with searchig for the best price and trying to get the most bang for your buck. But if price is your only motivator, you're ultimately gonna get 99 Cent store quality. If you are lucky enough to find a quality instructor who is competative with his price and gives you the best quality teaching with a few perks, have at it.

    Some instructors are worth higher prices due to the quality they put out. Others are only worth the lesser amounts they charge- perhaps due to a lack of experience over the higher priced ones. For example, I have an instructor come to my school every other week to do a grappling workshop. He is experienced in both BJJ and Sambo and has competed for years. He is very good, my students have learned a lot. He travels about 40 minutes one-way to do the class for us. He charges a drop-in rate of $5 per class. Cheap by anyone's standard. The class is 90 minutes and everyone has fun. If 10 students show up, he's made $50. A good, not great, night for him. If Royce Gracie were teaching a BJJ class at my school twice a month, and traveled 40 minutes each way, do you even think that it would be $5 per class?

    On the other hand, I would say that many, if not most, of the pricegouging instructors are not worth a dime. I would also say that many of the lower priced instructors are not even worth the money they charge.

    Again, buyer beware.

    And BaiKaiGuy, being thrifty, cautious, and having a strong opinion are admirable qualities. Being cheap, close-minded, and an obnoxious jerk are not. To imply that people like myself, AmericanHKD, and others on this forum are being disingenuous or borderline criminal because we want to earn a living from our MA schools is just plain wrong. You know nothing of my situation, my overhead, or anything else for that matter. If you were my student, and spoke to me with such an attitude, you would not last in my school. I have a lot of students who are thrifty and shopped around before joining my school. They learned that they get the most bang for the buck with me. They don't bat an eye when I need to charge a fee for services. I also get students that have financial hardships and I do everything I can to help them, but I do not give away the place just cuz somone thinks that I owe it to them to be cheaper. If you can't afford a Lexus, don't complain when the dealer won't sell you one. Be happy with your Hundai, or make more money.

    You're real good about wagging your finger at us and saying that we have the wrong attitude. Having re-read the thread, please notice that you came in here guns blazing and inferring (and sometimes saying outright) that anyone charging more than what you think is fair is automatically a McDojo, a Chain school, or price gouging. I'll say for the record that you are wrong, you're making statements without knowing all the facts, and you're alienating yourself from some decent people here with your attitude.

    You say you were "raised by a businessman"? Sounds more like you were raised by wolves. I was not raised by businessmen. I was raised by servicemen. I am learning business as I go along. I run a Mom-and-Pop school. I also know what is fair, needed, and when I feel like I am going too far. You don't like the way I do business, don't go to a school like mine.

    Rather than rail against prople like me, why not simply say that you got a good deal at your school and advise people to shop around. I do, and I get a lot of business because I am willing to put my school and program up against anyone else in my area.

    You wanna be a jerk, go right ahead. But you're doing it around a group of fighters- don't expect us to lay down and take it.
     
  12. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    And truth be told, I don't care what people think at the end of the day. It's an internet forum. I've found most of your responses just as obnoxious as you think I'm being to you.

    All I can say is "whatever" and be thankful I've got the training I do at the price I do, because obviously it's becoming rarer and rarer these days to find good training at the price I pay without all the extra fees. In the end, the kid's being given new techniques, he's got something worked out with his instructor, so life goes on.
     
  13. austinso

    austinso Valued Member

    I see that reading comprehension is not your strongest suit...and try not to think in "binary", eh?

    I realize it is challenging for some people so don't go blowing a cog or anything...

    Austin
     
  14. Hapkido Student

    Hapkido Student New Member


    Exactly. I Couldn't of said it better myself. I got very luck that i get to learn new techniques and that I'll be able to work everything out. Thanks to all who replied and helped me out, I appreciate it. :D
     
  15. MarioBro

    MarioBro Banned Banned

    The question needs to be asked...

    Why would you go off about one person who could not afford to pay for his belt test and call that 'sickening' and other such choice words without further questioning first.

    I thought you were a lawyer? Why would you not ask for other details, such as 'Why could you afford to outfit your room with $500.00 in equipment, but not put aside $55.00 for the belt test you knew was coming up?' before having a 'knee jerk' reaction (the term made famous in another thread)? Or perhaps ask 'Was your instructor perhaps aware of your inability to control your spending behaviours and to plan ahead for an upcoming test, and since you were doing work there and obviously had some money but did not pay for the test, he did not even offer to let you test for free whereas he would normally do so?'.

    Come on BKG, and then trying to say that many lawyers will offer some free services because they care so much...I am sure there will be some, but I have yet to meet them. Last lawyer I dealt with charged over $1000.00 for about 8 hours of work. In my opinion, the ones who are not squeezing the clients for cash are either fairly new to the game, working for the state or are the 1 in a thousand who actually do care a little.

    All that is totally aside from the fact that as a business they have the right to not test a student if they are not paying, though I would guess that most would work something out. I know my master will not let a student not test because of money issues, unless he feels they are either not ready to test or are not able to pay due to continuing irresponsibility on their part. Chances are there was a good reason for it, but it seems that for some reason you felt that it was your duty to come down on any martial arts school who would dare to try to keep their business viable.

    Your reaction in this thread as made me wonder how you can excel in your position as a lawyer...and you may also want to consider your reaction here and what that says about your hardheadedness.

    Just my observations, and I could be wrong...
     
  16. nj_howard

    nj_howard Valued Member

    Good grief... why is it necessary to stoop to such a level?
     
  17. Developing

    Developing Valued Member

    I think you said on a later post that your instructor has been willing to work with you and for that I am happy for you. Just wanted to commend you on your training regiment it sounds like some real dedication. I can relate somewhat as I am in similar situation of not being able to go for rank. The similarity ends with just that. I cannot go simply because of a nagging knee injury that has not quite healed. I won't be able to peform the neccessary teqniques and sparring that will be required for me to go the next level. But I realize by training in what I can do I continue to improve so I do go the next level and a belt is not neccessary. I don't believe a belt is of the upmost importance and from reading your posts I don't think you do either.

    But there is one thing that did kind of catch me. You said some of the "white belts" are better than some of the "black belts." I would say there is a slight problem with this to say the lease. Although I do not feel that a belt defines you as I have seen people who have never had a day of martial arts training in their life with better fighting instints than some high ranking black belts, I would still say a school that has white belts better than black belts to be a little unusual. I was wondering in sparring sessions do these white belts convincingly beat the black belts and if so how does your head instructor view students who have been with him for less than a year maybe, defeating men and women who have been with him for four years or more?
    I find that to be a curious point and maybe its just me because no one else seemed to notice it. If I were you I would really focus on developing techniques that work for me. Just because your instructor teaches you a technique doesn't mean you should do it exactly the same way. You will almost always have to modify techniques to suit yourself. As long as you train with that concept in mind than I wouldn't be concerned about ranking. Just keep training and the ranking will take care of itself. Once you reach a certain level of skill I don't think your instructor will want to hold you back.
     
  18. Hapkido Student

    Hapkido Student New Member


    Excellent. Thanks. I feel bad for about the knee problem, I have had a problem with both my knee's that limits me to 2 classes a week. I have tendonitous(spelling) in both knee's the left knee worse though. When I said that the white belt's were better I exagerrated about that( Sorry about that I did exagurate(Spelling?) when I said the white belt's better then the black belt's. I've never seen one beat a black belt in sparring...LOL..Sorry about that. :D ). Thanks for complimenting on my training. I really appreciate that. I really hope that nagging knee injury goes away( I know that's a big pain in the rear to have.) I wish you the best of luck on that injury. Thanks for your input and inspiration :-D
     
  19. Developing

    Developing Valued Member

    No problem mate I hope everything works out. :eek:
     
  20. Hapkido Student

    Hapkido Student New Member

    Thanks man I hope everything work's out well with that injury of yours and everything else. Take care :Angel:
     

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