Minimun force needed

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by ninjas-r-us, Dec 21, 2004.

  1. ninjas-r-us

    ninjas-r-us I sit under your tea

    this is a new law passed in my area. If a fight ensues you must use the minimum amount of force nessecary....how can I judge this? i know not to use an arm break or a neck strike or somthing powerful as this. But does any one have any tips...now i dont want to go he hits me i hit him...that would end porly on my end
     
  2. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    Think of it this way, if you were in a situation where you have successfully defended yourself, and you continued to pound on the other person, then you've probably exceeded the "minimum" amount of force necessary.
     
  3. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Any strike has the potential for a lot of damage (just look at the stats of people punched once in the playground/pub parking lot, fall down the wrong way, hit their head and die).

    If you do Martial Arts you're opening yourself up to more liability as it's probably expected that you have a good idea of how much damage a particular strike can do. If he has cuts/broken bones and you don't, you'll probably be treated as the instigator of violence most of the time, unless you've got a convention of nuns and security camera footage as witnesses.

    If you're worried about the legal implications, you're probably doing it wrong. Err on the side of caution. If you are in a real confrontation (e.g. mugging down a dark alley) your first motivation should be to protect yourself. The legal implications for hurting them is second.

    On the other hand, if it's just a drunk in a bar, you should use enough force to protect yourself/others to enable you to run/get out. This is where locks/restraints would be a lot better (from a legal pov) than strikes.
     
  4. Funky Phantom

    Funky Phantom Valued Member

    My tip would be to make your own judgement as to what you have to do to defend yourself and make sure you get out of there sharpish after the event, so as to avoid any disagreement with the police as to whether the force you used was minimal or otherwise...
     
  5. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    But then again fleeing the scene could be seen as an implication of guilt... if you're caught, that is.

    If you hurt the person really badly (i.e. they need immediate medical attention), you MUST call the police/ambulance. You don't have to stay down the dark alleyway and give mouth-to-mouth to the drughead freak who attacked you, but you should get to safety and call for help from the nearest available phone (but not necessarily give your own details).

    It's still a person, in that situation they are now the victim, and the police have a duty to investigate/prosecute any crime, especially serious assault.
     
  6. mystererae

    mystererae Valued Member

    I'm curious, is the idea of the 'minimum amount of force necessary' flexible in the sense that if a small, thirteen year old girl with some martial arts training jabbed a man in the eye and blinded him, she'd be let off -- but if a six-foot, 200-pound man with training, or even no training, did the same, he might be found guilty of using excessive force? [in a situation such as a mugging, or some sort of fight, both against an opponent of let's say 5'8 and 140 pounds...]
     
  7. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Unfortunately, that's probably the truth.

    Remember, if it reaches the courts, the crim will probably have a good lawyer whose sole job is to make you seem like an out of control lunatic. If they know you've studied Karate for 8 years, they'll use that as a weapon - either "oooh, he has a fixation with violence" or "he is a karate master, he should know how to handle himself without using excessive violence". See, it's bad either way they use it.

    Put it this way. A guy comes up to a small, young woman with little MA training, he's holding a knife and it's at night down an alley. She screams and fights him, arms flailing everywhere - by sheer luck she pushes him to the ground and twists on his arm so that it breaks - causing permanent nerve/tendon damage.

    On the other hand - a tall, heavily built guy with a black belt is attacked by the same mugger. He uses his MA training to hammer the mugger with 5 blows to the head - essentially knocking him out on his feet. But to finish off, he expertly grabs the guy's arm and breaks it - causing permanent nerve/tendon damage.

    Yeah, the judge is going to be more understanding toward the woman.

    It may be unfair but it's reality. If you're male, you're more likely to get prosecuted for using excessive force. If you do martial arts you should be extra careful, and if you're 6'8", heavily built and with a shaved head, you'd better be sure to get your suit drycleaned before you step into the court.
     
  8. Funky Phantom

    Funky Phantom Valued Member

    Bear in mind that when I say use your judgement I do still mean that you should attempt to minimise damage, but not at the expense of your safety, so you shouldn't get stuck in a situation where you've really beaten the stuffing out of your attacker, since I don't think that could really be justified as minimal force by anyone...

    Obviously if you seem to have inflicted excessive damage in the heat of the moment and they are in a bad way or unconcious, you should definitely as you suggested call an ambulance, but probably from a phone box so you can't be traced and don't give details so you remain anonymous.

    In my opinion, getting out of there fast after the event is pretty fair if you've perhaps done more than you should, as it was the attacker that originally instigated the violence, but your suggestions were very sound. As for the police, maybe I'm just cynical, but the thought of the police actually being there any time soon after a crime taking place seems somewhat alien to me...
     
  9. Funky Phantom

    Funky Phantom Valued Member

    A very unfortuante but very realistic assessment of the realities of life. One man's (or should that be girls\womans?) self-defence is another mans GBH and jail-term.
     
  10. ninjas-r-us

    ninjas-r-us I sit under your tea

    lol no, im 5'5 160 and a bit pudgy im no mucel man
     
  11. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    my opinion of minimal force is as follows, he comes at me empty handed: i punch him until he passes out or cannot fight, then i call the police.

    he comes at me with a weapon: i try to break his arm(s), so he cannot use his weapon(s) , then i call an ambulance and the police(but nothing more than break his arms, and not violently either, just disconnect the two bones of the elbow)

    Fish of Doom

    EDIT: just noted a typo in the title, it says "minimun"
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2005
  12. Jim Sorensen

    Jim Sorensen Valued Member

    I think this new law is unfair, because it's extremely difficult to define "minimum force" with even an experienced practitioner let alone a complete newbie only trying to save his life.

    Where the heck do you live?
     
  13. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i wonder if they would accuse you of exceeding minimum force if you beat up the countries worst known killer and broke all of his bones.
     
  14. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    I don't know if Henry Kissinger would put up much of a fight from a MA pov :D

    ...oops! :eek: :rolleyes:
     
  15. Jimmy Jitsu

    Jimmy Jitsu Valued Member

    My understanding of Minimum Force

    I believe what the law here is trying to say is that you can only use force until there is no physical endangerment to you. Lets say you get in a bar fight. You are entitled to defend yourself but just say you hit the guy down with one punch and he was knocked out, you could not therefore stomp on his head, break a limb or strangle him. You have rendered the person in a position where they are no longer a threat to you. Or lets say you get a lock on his arm and he submits you cannot then go on an break the arm. Alternativey if he attacks you unarmed but you have a knife and stab the offender you have used excessive force. As soon as you have taken any sort of self-defence or MA training even one day the law sees your body as being a weapon. So if you do get into a self-defence situation and give the person a good thrashing keep mum about being a 10th Dan in Taebo!
     
  16. Kyorishi

    Kyorishi New Member

    This is a bunch of crap. It sounds like people are afraid of martial arts and martial artists. If you provoke a fight, you take your own life in your hands, PERIOD. You have no idea of the capabilities of your opponent. The moral here is: Don't provoke any fights! Avoid them when you can! Why does there need to be legislation on this?

    As for the martial artist, it depends on the type of threat. If your aggressor is just some drunken bum that is looking for pocket change to buy his next bottle, give him the damn change if you have it! It's not worth spilling blood for!

    If, however, this person is someone that has something personal against you, you may need to apply a little more force. After they attack you, give them a little love tap, and hope to hell they decide you aren't worth it. If they come back for more, crank it up a notch. Give them a few bruises.

    If there are multiple attackers, you are up against an obviously superior foe (and are afraid for your life), the opponent has a weapon, etc... You may have to break some bones. If your life is threatened, do whatever is necessary. It is better to live your life in prison then be confined to a pine box.

    No matter what the circumstances, it is always best to run or call the police if possable. If you have to injure someone, call the police again after the deed is done. This will establish the fact that you have nothing to hide. Also, stay there unless your life is still in danger. You don't want to be charged with leaving the scene of a crime.

    This is my personal philosophy. I am not claiming this is the 'right' way, or the only way to handle a scenario like this.
     
  17. tkd_master

    tkd_master Human Punchbag

    from where I'm from, if your in fear of your life(i.e. they say that they're gonna kill you) you can do whatever it takes to protect yourself. You can pick up a brick and smash their head in if you want!
     
  18. spiff

    spiff New Member

    kungfu_master, they did try changing the law recently i think, didn't they? so that only people using "grossly disproportionate force" risk prosection.

    when i was studying law i asked a couple judges at the local county court what their attitudes would be towards a martial artist maybe using a little too much force when defending themselves.
    they both said that generally they rule in favour of the MA (depending on how long they've been training) because they know that the martial arts teach respect and to only fight as a last resort. they have confidence in the character of the MA, especially when the other guy is your typical english lager lout.
     
  19. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Because if there wasn't, lynch mob justice would be legal. "He hit me, so me and my 25 mates went at him with bits of 2 by 4." Imagine the chaos.

    If you called the police yourself, there's no reason why you should stick around.
     
  20. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I suppose it's a bit like high school, the kid who's in and out of the headmaster's office like a boomerang is hardly going to be believed over the straight-laced kid when issues like "who started it" are raised.
     

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