Mindfulness and the martial arts

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Vince Millett, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. Vince Millett

    Vince Millett Haec manus inimica tyrannis MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Here's an interesting article about mindfulness in martial arts from Matt Thornton, founder of Straight Blast Gym International, an association of over 35 gyms worldwide engaged in training athletes in BJJ, boxing and MMA.

    His organisation has done a lot of work over the years on how people learn, so there's often a deep theoretical framework behind their training methodologies. His videos on YouTube are well worth a watch.

     
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  2. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I've been practicing mindfulness meditation since 2000, and spent plenty of time thinking about how it intersects with my martial arts and fencing training. There's things that I really like and things I really don't like about this article.

    Basically everything where he talks about how BJJ fosters mindfulness is great.

    One area where it falls apart for me is when he starts talking about how martial arts that aren't combat sports, or physical activities that aren't direct competition (like distance running), aren't as good. There are multiple different ways that an activity can build mindfulness, and just because Y is dissimilar to X didn't mean it's inferior from a mindfulness perspective. As an example:

    "Zazen mediation is great for building mindfulness because being free of external input allows you to focus on your breath. Washing dishes is nothing like zazen mediation. Thus, washing dishes isn't good for building mindfulness."

    (In fact, washing dishes is one of Thich That Hanh's favorite mindfulness exercises)

    The fact that BJJ is unscripted and that lack of script is part of why it works does not mean that scripted athletic activities don't work. Ballroom dance? Figure skating? Plenty of articles have been working about how these help build mindfulness, and they're as scripted as it gets. You still need to be 100% present in the moment.

    Finally, there's an odd paragraph where he suggests that most combat sports besides BJJ have a major risk of brain damage:

    Why not also mention wrestling, judo, Olympic TKD, fencing, kendo, etc? From a mindfulness perspective, all of these have the same context of competitive free sparring with low risk of CTE. And don't say "he didn't mention them because he doesn't teach them." He doesn't teach aikido either, and that didn't stop him from making all sorts of assertions about it and it's practitioners elsewhere in the article.
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think there are different paths to mindfulness (or even different sorts). The example I was given in counselling was to consider a flower. Looking at it, studying it, the shapes, the textures, etc. Being focused and "present" in "something". This was to counter anxiety around future events and worries.
    I can see this sort of mindfulness in playing and instrument or doing a craft.
    The mindfulness of BJJ I think is more forced upon you due to having to problem solves and exist in the moment.
    Both are useful and indeed helpful but I think different.
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I get the distinction he is making, but I don't think the terminology exists to make that distinction clear.

    Zen or flow state can absolutely be applied to scripted activities. Just watch a concert pianist playing a piece from memory to see it in action.

    That is different from the kind of flow state you enter when improvising in an unscripted situation, but it seems that his prejudice about fighting systems is bleeding into distinctions of mental states, and placing value judgements on them without any reasoning or justification.
     
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  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    The distinction between scripted and unscripted activities made me think of a music neuroscience experiment I heard about the other day.

    From the abstract:



    I think there are similar things going on in unscripted MA training. Though to say that one brain state is "better" than another doesn't make sense to me.
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Vunak once said to me “anyone can be calm in a forest or under a waterfall...that means nothing; try staying calm as someone is drilling left hooks into your rib cage and then you have acheived something”

    Pressure such as that found in combat situations is a “turbo charge” method - Singh does a similar thing when he tries to stab me with a live blade at lectures on High Performance Zones, but he then teaches a more gentle route to get to the same level

    It’s quite ironic the combat sports thing as many end up jacked up and wired more than most, which is counterproductive - the more traditional systems actually can help with that as you get lost in the form
     
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  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Minor point, but concussions in judo happen a lot, and I would bet getting kicked in the head in a WTF match would also do the same.
     
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  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Had the old 'stars in the vision' when doing judo (bad falls) for a few months far more than doing tkd for a few years. Although tkd probably has a few more minor head jolts (which research seems to be finding can also be damaging).
     
  9. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Meh. It was an ok article but nothing that most martial artists with a few years under their belts didn't know already. Look past the flowery writing and what he's essentially saying is,"BJJ is superior at suppressing the ego." I've seen plenty of big athletic men quit after their first session of karate/TKD point fighting because they got lit up with light head kicks (placing them with ease) by a younger, smaller female. BJJ wears the crown for elitism in martial arts these days.
     
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  10. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Yep. Which is an odd angle, since mindfulness and humility are two entirely different things. You can be humble and distracted, or arrogant and in the zone. And while competitive sport necessarily cultivates mindfulness, it doesn't always cultivate humility (see Colin MacGregor and many others).
     
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    An arrogant or humble person might be able to get into flow states or achieve zen in their practice, but I would argue that they cannot feel arrogant or humble while they are in the zone. That would be the ego snapping them out of their flow state, if they are having those feelings during their practice.
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I would say that he is misusing the term "mindfulness".

    He seems to be talking about "flow", zen, or dhyana; a single-pointed consciousness. This is not the same as the detached observation of mindfulness, which includes any and all emotional states, but also an awareness of those states as they occur.
     
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  13. barongan

    barongan New Member

    subscribed, this seems like a very interesting thread[​IMG]
     
  14. ned

    ned Valued Member

    Ok so what is your opinion ?

    Me ? I engage in mindfulness every time I'm running and often when I'm working on my own (after 25+years on same tools) totally absorbed in the job at hand. It's really not something I have ever had to practice or work at, more that I have gradually acquired.
    It is transferrable to martial arts or any other activity once you have that ability to relax and declutter your mind.
    Specifically in taiji is an essential part of push hands in order to be able to develop the sensitivity to read subtle pointers of intent from your opponent.
    Not to easy when someone is trying to take your head off in a full spar but those who do it regularly enough will
    be in that same head space.

    I suppose you could liken it to an animal state, existing purely in response to stimuli in your immediate environment without distractions of
    extraenous thought.In that sense it can be fleeting given the over stimulated world today which can drain the senses.
     
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  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    In terms of psychology, as far as I understand it as a layperson, that is describing the flow state, not mindfulness.

    Mindfulness - Wikipedia

    Flow (psychology) - Wikipedia

    Interesting that the example of flow given in relation to martial arts in the wiki is of an MMA champ bringing concepts from traditional martial arts into modern competitive martial arts:

    Flow (psychology) - Wikipedia
     
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  16. ned

    ned Valued Member

    The difference between flow and mindfulness being detached mental involvement as opposed to total mental absorbtion then by those definitions ?
    I would say that is a very subtle difference in practice and there more often than not is a combination of the two going on in the activities I described.
    By those interpretations then, being able to effectively suppress the ego is not really a necessity of mindfulness but integral to effectively achieve the 'flow' state, I was referring to.




    On the comparison with the animal state this from a fishing book I've been reading ( The Longest Silence by Thomas McGuane ) touches on same theme;

    "We like to think of selective trout, it suits our anthropocentricity to believe that we are in a duel of wits with a fish, a sporting proposition.
    We would do well to understand that trout and other game fish are entirely lacking in sporting instincts. They would prefer to remain unmolested and without being eaten themselves.
    In my view a trout that is feeding selectively is doing the following; having ascertained that many of the objects passing his view are edible,he decides which he can eat efficiently and which will do him the most good. Then in the interest of energy conservation, and if the chosen food item is in sufficient quantity, the trout gradually transfers the decision making to something like muscle memory, to thoughtless routine".
     
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  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yes, that's my understanding. And you're right about experiencing multiple states; I think in general people enter a state of mindfulness and then get short bursts of flow, when they truly lose themselves to the activity.
     
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