Met some Christians...

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Smitfire, Apr 9, 2007.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I had an on the street discussion with some born again Christians that I found very interesting. Most of my thoughts on religion don't have a human face to discuss them with so it was a real eye opener to meet some actual Bible literalists.

    There was a group in York over the easter break trying to remind people of the true meaning of easter (Christ's death and ressurection and all that).
    I leant over to my girlfriend and said "Easter is actually an old pagan fertility festival named after the goddes "Eostre", hence all the eggs and bunnies, that the early Christians adopted during the rise of Christianity".
    At that a young girl (that I thought was just someone watching) turned round and started to discuss salvation through Jesus and the truth of the Bible with me.
    I told her that I believe all religions are made up and before I knew it four of them were gathered round discussing Christianity and the bible.
    I had some time to spare so I discussed it right back. :)

    What struck me was that all four of them were really young. Mid twenties at the most.

    It seems that the basis of their beliefs (and their main way of trying to make me see the light throughout the 45 mintue discussion) was mainly Pascal's wager.
    The "eternal damnation awaits me if I'm wrong" school of thought so I might as well believe while I'm here.
    I tried to point out that their fear of punishment in an afterlife had absolutely no effect on the truth of their beliefs (only on their desire for it to be true).
    They didn't get me.

    They asked me what I believed. I said science, evolution, reason, logic, evidence etc.
    One of the guys said that evolution was wrong as, and I quote, "How can all this be down to chance?".
    I pointed out that evolution was not "chance" and that he should really read up on what evolution is about before trying to use it to convert me.

    I asked what they believed. And this is what got me...they actually believed that the bible as literal truth. Full-on, the world is only 6500 years old, Adam and Eve actually existed, talking snake, no evolution, Noah's ark and all that.

    That really shocked me.

    I thought these kind of people only really existed in Bible belt America. They've always been "somewhere else" to me. And yet here they were stood in front of me.
    Now people that interpret the bible as allegory or metaphor seem much more in keeping with modern thought to me but these people were something else entirely.

    I asked them if their god was all knowing, powerful and good.
    They said yes.
    I asked why he killed all those babies in the Asian Tsunami.
    I don't remember a satisfactory answer.
    One said that god didn't kill them.
    I said that if you fail to push a toddler away from in front of a run-away car, when you could, then you are responsible for their death.
    Metahorically God could have done that with the Tsunami victims.
    Again I don't think they got my point.

    I tried to point out that they were all atheists just like me (my girlfriend said that this shocked them although I don't know why).
    I pointed out that they didn't believe in Thor, Allah, Zeus, Baal, Mithras (or Eostre for that matter) and that I just applied the same disbelief to their god.
    I said that all the reasons they didn't beleif in those other gods were the same as my reasons for not believing in theirs.
    I think they were starting to get a bit narked by now and kept trying to give me a cd to listen to and walk away. :)

    I started to get an inkling about their true beliefs and asked them if they'd actually read the WHOLE Bible (as they seemed to cherry pck the nice bits to talk about).
    Now this REALLY shocked me. Not one said yes.
    Out of the four not one said yes.
    I made my incredulity clear to them by basically laughing.
    They were on the street trying to convince people of the truth of the Bible and they hadn't even read it! :eek:
    I told them that that was probably their first port of call in their quest...actually read the bloody thing! (As it turns out I'm reading the Bible start to finish at the moment and I'll be surprised if they get past page 10 before skipping bits it's that boring).

    After 45 minutes they admitted we were basically arguing in circles and we went our seperate ways.
    As it turns out their little evangelical session had the complete opposite effect to the one intended...I'm now more sure of the ludicrous nature of the core beliefs of literal Christians than ever before.
    So I thank them for that. :)
     
  2. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Unfortunately one of the worst ways to learn about christianity is by listening to Christians (some of them, that is, not all).
     
  3. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    I have only had one literalist try to convince me face to face. It went in much the same way. (Except I could tell they had read the bible.) I do however find some good in people that use Pascal's wager, atleast they seem to be genuinely worried about you, unlike the ego driven cat I ran into.

    But anyway, I second Yohan's post.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2007
  4. mike-IHF

    mike-IHF Valued Member

    PAsmith,

    Just curious but I don't really understand your reason behind your post. Could you maybe explain why you were posting that information?
     
  5. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter


    That any of this even surprises you in the slightest... is... amazing.
    What did you expect? Either that or you need to get out more.

    I suspect that this was really just a way for you to feel clever about yourself and your understanding of logic. You've had a not so positive take on Chrisitans before. Wasn't it you that was having trouble dealing with boxers/fighters praying before bouts?

    I'd say be careful not to wrench your shoulder out of whack for having figured out some young born-again Christians. It's not that hard of an intellectual feat to manage.

    Surely you can find something better to do with your time. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Mike,

    Reasons behind my post...well currently I'm reading the Bible as well as some other books around the subject of belief, religion and the application of reason. It's a subject I'm interested in although so far I'm merely a dabbler trying to get some idea of other people's beliefs and where my beliefs stand in relation to them.
    I know some people on here are similarly interested so might appreciate an actual real life meeting like this (rather than some fairly abstract internet discussion)?
    If you're not interested then fine.
    I'd also appreciate other Christians take on how the Christians I met set about trying to convince me of their beliefs.
    I also posted it in the effort to highlight how people can establish an utter conviction about something without actually reading the whole thing.
    That to me is VERY interesting.
    Now perhaps I am nieve but I thought that the very least a literalist Christian would do was read the Bible cover to cover!?!

    Slip,

    "That any of this even surprises you in the slightest... is... amazing.
    What did you expect? Either that or you need to get out more."

    Yes, yes....I appreciate you're a man of the world and I a mere neophyte in the ways of others.
    Please indulge someone of lesser experience.
    I've never met a literalist Christian before. By your tone I imagine you meet them all the time?
    I'll be honest and say that I was "surprised" that this group of people had taken time out of their day to organise a presentation in an attempt to convince some complete strangers of the undeniable truth of a book they haven't read.
    I don't see how that's NOT amazing! :confused:

    "I suspect that this was really just a way for you to feel clever about yourself and your understanding of logic."

    Heh...I didn't seek these people out man..I was shopping at the time.
    I was approached on the street...I responded...they responded...we discussed...I found it interesting...I posted in the belief that others would find it interesting.
    Personally I don't think I do understand logic.
    I've just started reading up on this stuff. I'm primarily an artist (rather than any sort of intellectual person)..I did an illustration degree for christ's sake...hardly a basis for any sort of intellectual superiority complex! :D

    "You've had a not so positive take on Chrisitans before. Wasn't it you that was having trouble dealing with boxers/fighters praying before bouts?"

    At this stage I have a "not so positive take" on all religions. :)
    I asked my question about fighters praying because I genuinely wanted to know about the mechanics of praying to a god about something as stupid as fighting. The why's and the wherefor's. Reason's and processes. I don't do it myself so can't use my experiences to understand it.

    "I'd say be careful not to wrench your shoulder out of whack for having figured out some young born-again Christians. It's not that hard of an intellectual feat to manage."

    No no....you're missing my point. It was not that they were young (although that was a surprise to me) but just how little knowledge they'd based their (incredibly strong) beliefs on.
    As stated I don't come into contact with these sort of people in my normal life so when I did I expected some pretty strong opposition to my views.
    I didn't find that opposition.

    "Surely you can find something better to do with your time."

    Sorry man but that's the lamest internet put down there is.
    You have no idea about what I do with my time.
    Apart that is from a 45 minute discussion with some Bible lieralists and my subsequent starting of a thread about it as part of my ongoing interest in religion and belief. Big deal.
    Oh how I waste my life away....please Mr TheJab what should I be doing?
    More training?
    Less posting?

    :eek:
     
  7. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    *hint. :p
     
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Haha...says one of the most prolific posters on MAP!
    Mr Kettle...meet Mr Pot...I believe he wishes to discuss the nature of your current hue.
     
  9. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    At least I'm not playing Captain Obvious. :D
     
  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    No, they were not/are not atheist like you.

    Maybe they were shocked you didn't know what the word meant? :D

    Allah is the same God as the the judeo-christian god. The others are a different forms of theism. poly theism i think, . eg. there were a bunch of Greek gods (pantheon of gods), not one all powerful creator god. Personally i don't know much about paganism, but it is very different from a Christian conception of theism.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2007
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Captain Obvious?...no...Captain Condescending?...yes. :)

    OK perhaps "Atheistic like me" may not be an entirely accurate way of describing our mutual disbelief of the vast majority of the gods.
    But certainly we shared much the same beliefs about other gods and methods of worship.
    They didn't believe that following the Islamic version of God would get them into heaven. I dont believe that either.
    They thought that belief in Zeus, Eostre, Thor, Ganesh and all the others was ridiculous. I think that too.

    As defined in the dictionary atheism is "disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings".
    That disbelief is exactly what they had about all of the other gods (apart from the Abrahamic one of course).
    What's the difference between their disbelief and mine?
     
  12. stump

    stump Supersub

    PASmith, I read your original post and thought of this li'l ol number...

    [​IMG]

    Sorry...carry on...didn't mean to disrupt the genuinely good debate :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2007
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Heh...is that aimed at me (in the same vein as Mr The Jab)? :)
     
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    The God of Judeism, Christianity and Islam is the same God. Differing interpretation does not change that. Catholocism interperates differently to the COE, still the same God..

    What they disbelieve is NOT the point at all. The point being they believe in the existence of a supreme being. OBVIOUSLY LOL!

    Due to the definition of the word Atheism - in anyones language -automatically discounts them from qualifying as Atheist. In ANY way shape or form.. I do believe.

    You made a lickle mistake, don't worry about it..
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2007
  15. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Mainly that I haven't got to listen to rants about Zues, Eostre, Thor or Ganesh. :p

    But for some reason, in this day and age we're innudated with people beating the obvious dead horse.

    I'm curious - when you spoke with these types of Christians... what were you really expecting... some sort of logical reasoning? :confused:

    note: You mention Ganesh as if he was some God of antiquity that's been relegated to the vaults of history. Ganesh is still a highly revered deity even to this day, worshipped by millions.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2007
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    "I'm curious - when you spoke with these types of Christians... what were you really expecting... some sort of logical reasoning?"

    I wasn't expecting anything...'twas a chance encounter started by an off the cuff comment while shopping.
    I didn't even know they were THAT type of christian until well into the conversation.
    As stated I kind of expected the majority of Christians (certainly in Britain) to be of the "bible as allegory" kind.

    I was more struck by the almost completely alien way their brains worked.
    Especially one guy that did most of the talking...he was clearly intelligent and we clearly got on as people...but he actually believes that Noah got two of every animal and bird into a 150foot long (approx) wooden boat.
    My mind just cannot really comprehend containing a thought like that while still living in this day and age.
    It just can't.
    As soon as I try to work that out and assimilate it it into what I know of the world my brain says "can't compute" and rejects it.
    His brain does not do that.
    And it really interests me how that can be the case.

    Oh and as for Ganesh...I merely mention him as an example of a god they didn't believe in, that was also a god I don't believe in.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2007
  17. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Ah interesting.
    For some reason I thought you were from the states. Which is maybe why I found it so odd that you'd never come across these type of Christians before. Maybe in light of that it makes more sense that you were a bit shocked by it all.

    In my life I'd spent a fair bit of time around Pentacostal Christians. The whole fire and brimstone lot. Speaking in tongues... the laying on of hands... the whole nine yards.:eek:

    Looking back now... the vast majority of them are entirely harmless. I found most of them to be quite decent and upright people. I ended up with a lot of respect for them as a group of people in that they were hardworking and willing to give you the shirt of their back. As much as some of their beliefs seem wacky to me... I found them overall... very down to earth in a sense. I never saw the point in trying to give them a hard time about their beliefs. What for? Did I really expect anyone to change and see the world the way I saw it?

    Not really.
    Not now. Not then.
     
  18. stump

    stump Supersub

    Nope - the other way around. Though I'm guessing I could get myself into trouble here so better I quietly fade into the background :)
     
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Ah I see...when I said "York" in my original post I meant the old, ex-capital of Viking Britain York...not the "New" York everyone seems to go on about. :)

    I can well understand your view about them being good people and all that.
    These were clearly a very nice bunch. Well spoken, articulate and very well meaning.
    That to me made it all the more sad that they had partitioned off this irrational and deluded part of their brains and somehow made it gel with the real world.
    That's the bit I truly don't understand.

    You accuse me of having nothing better to do and yet these (seemingly) intelligent people could think of nothing better than haranguing people in the street with half understood ideas.
    Very odd.
     
  20. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    welcome to my world! isn't stupidity disgusting? :D
     

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