Memorization

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by SsangKall, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    using too much reliance on memorizing form and not something more important... adaptability. for instance, in tugi we have a couple hip tosses, shoulder tosses, fireman and wheel throws. i hope that by the time a person reaches master level they have memorized a few variations (whats that, 20 years with the material!)
     
  2. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    In case you've not seen this before: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWLECJLRjc0"]Kuk Sool variables - YouTube[/ame]
     
  3. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    An example of lock-flow, or 'chain-linking' locks: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZSPFlZXvOg"]Joint Lock Flow I - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Personally, I no longer believe that it is necessary (or even that beneficial) to always try to do the exact same finish at all times - especially once a technique has been mastered. Combat is not a dance, or a form, it is an ever-changing entity. It usually has a Beginning, a Muddle, and an End. And yes, I did say 'Muddle'!

    I think that it is beneficial to explore and investigate alternative routes in training. Find out where a different energy can lead you to. It's a bit like driving from A to F (or wherever). You can always take the same old boring route, or else you can try going another way. As an example, here's an alternative ending to KBS 1: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4c8QqUM1tQ"]Kuk Sool variations - YouTube[/ame]
     
  5. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Finishing Moves in my opinion have 3 degrees of severity. 1st take them down with out injury ( or at least as much as possible ) This is done when you need to control a friend or so and they are just being an A**. 2nd is make them submit, for those times that you think it is better for them not to hurt anyone else or themselves. 3rd is take them out of the picture, so you can concentrate on other things and other attackers.

    Using the Kuk Sool Finishing moves you can easily go from one to another. Example: KBS#5

    Take them to the ground to put a reality check on them.

    After taking them down Knee on Bicep with a wrist lock: if they move THEY cause pain.

    Then if needed Break the wrist.

    ALL FROM THE SAME MOVE! just giving the basic descriptions so not to take up space.

    Check it out they all can be done this way. :evil:

    Yes, I agree that when in a real situation nothing is perfect and nothing goes perfect. So be able to adapt! This is why Kuk Sool is great, we teach things that just follow into each other when something does not work for one reason or another.:evil:
     
  6. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Oh I forgot:
    A technique is also divide into three parts:

    The "Technique" = how to take someone down
    The "Fall" = how to prevent pain when being taken down
    The "Finish" = as it says

    I grade on all of them. Even the finishing moves have concepts to learn about them. When you stop teaching them you omit part of the ART. Yes, you can always change things up but remember when giving a TEST to someone you want to see what they know about the testing material. So when in that situation I want to see the taught material from beginning to end. :evil:
     
  7. JTMS

    JTMS Valued Member

    From the very start I teach my students the concept of "push pull". It not just what to do if someone grabs you, but what to do in relation to the specific attack. What direction are they attempting to move. Lol believe it or not, people can and will resist technique. "Push pull" shows us how to use our attackers energy against them and how to flow WITH resistance.
     
  8. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    So, back on topic…I’m curious to know, do you (directed at everyone) actually REQUIRE memorization of techniques in order for rank? Or is understanding the concept and being able to do the correctly good enough? Do you allow students to refer to textbooks or other material, or maybe have a chart on the wall.

    My feeling is that some memorization is a necessary evil, so that people can all get on the same page to practice the same thing. However, I go have a goal of making a large laminated wall chart with little pictures of each techniques (just to jog the memory), so that people can refer to it during practice.

    I remember that when I was around blue belt or red belt, I felt like I was overloaded with having to memorize techniques. My teacher insisted that all black belts memorize the entire curriculum without referring to any text, or notes – a requirement that, I must confess, I could no longer meet with regards to the Kuk Sool material, at any rate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2011
  9. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I'm sorry to say, Pugil, but in my case at least, you're preaching to the choir. Anyone that has "mastered" a technique had damn well better be able to mix & match the beginning, middle, & end with other techniques they've mastered AND be able to make it all work, regardless of how muddled it looks. :evil:

    OTOH, if someone relies on a specific curriculum in order to teach these skills, then students should naturally be EXPECTED to do the associated ending to whichever technique is being focused upon, wouldn't you agree? Learning variations is something that should come after one has learned the basics, IMO. I realize that some folks teach differently, i.e. separately presenting the components you mentioned (beginning, middle, end) without necessarily connecting them into a *specific* technique. However, you know good & well I wasn't referring to such individuals when making the statement you quoted.



    After reviewing the linked video, I have to say that I don't see it. In every case, once the person is downed from the throw of KBS #1, you always check the elbow of their straightened arm, even if doing so with your hand instead of your knee (obviously done in order to control any attempt by them to rise to their feet - which BTW, is what I learned to do when thrown in this fashion, albeit on the *bounce* so the person who threw you might miss the opportunity to maintain control of the situation). It's after you've checked their elbow that you transition into your so-called alternates. Well truth be told, I guess I should count myself lucky, as I've always known about such things as you demonstrated in the video, and I call them "ground control tactics." In fact, it was when I was a beginner in kuk-sool that I first encountered the concept of lock-flow skills, by watching a Korean master transition through several of these ground control tactics, as opposed to seeing lock flows done from a standing posture (although I eventually did see standing lock flows performed by this master as well, once I reached the advanced level [i.e. brown belt/dan bo]).

    As I understand it, the use of ground control tactics isn't always the same as the ending to a technique (also called kkeutsu; 끝수). There are many kkeutsu which don't necessarily CONTROL the subject and ergo why I learned "ground control tactics" as a separate entity. Often they simply re-emphasize an important aspect of the technique prior to takedown. A perfect example of this can be found in jung geup son mok su #7; I'd hardly expect to adequately control someone by merely pressing on yeol gyeol hyeol (LUNG-7). :rolleyes:

    Maybe it might help if I mentioned that despite the *official* KSW ending to KBS #14 being simply to pin their shoulder with your knee, I learned to step over their torso and drop into a "classic" armbar. The official ending for KBS #15 is identical to #14, but I learned to kneel on the neck instead, much like #10 or #11 (after all, you should still have hold of their neck after flipping them over your back, so locating it is a matter of *feel* rather than sight). I also want to remind everyone that what the textbook shows for the kkeutsu in KBS #13, hadn't been the *default* way of ending that technique when the textbook first emerged (release date=1993). FWIW, the method shown in the BLACK textbook, is how I originally learned the ending for #13, but it IS different to what is shown in the RED textbook (which as we all know, was the *standard* prior to the multi-volume set we know & love today).
     
  10. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Allow me to ask...

    Can you remember where you last put your car keys, when you're ready to take a drive?

    Do you know your social security number? your street address? your cell phone number?

    How about the birthdays or anniversaries of loved ones, do you know these off the top of your head or do you rely on one of those "daily planners" to remember such things?


    When I was a kid, we were expected to memorize all sorts of things, from important dates in history to mathematical tables and scientific formulas. I hate to say it, but what you're complaining about just sounds like *whining* to me. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    I remember all the other stuff, but loose my car keys all the time. But I'm curious what makes you think I'm complaining...I'm just relating actual events?

    I have heard people at WKSA schools tell me that no black belts at their school knew
    the techniques in order, and that they had to rely in the books. I mentioned that that wasn't the case where I learned, and I'm asking if other people require memorization as my instructor did?

    Also, although I do no longer know the kuk Sool curriculum by heart, I know the one I teach currently.

    Also, to Pugil, you wrote:


    "Anyone that has "mastered" a technique had damn well better be able to mix & match the beginning, middle, & end with other techniques they've mastered AND be able to make it all work",

    To which, my response is that easy for "us" to say that, because the people on this thread have been practicing the techniques for decades and (should) understand concepts behind the techniques. Typical students do not fall into this category and may benefit from memorization of exact movements, but often have trouble feeling overloaded with memorization, particularly around blue/red belt level.

    For these people, do we require memorization? or concentrate on teaching the concepts rather than having them memorize technique numbers. I am not asking a rhetorical question. In my case, I've decided that making a chart for them is the way to go, but require memorization for black belts, so that they can teach.

    In closing, I'd like to really get the hornet's nest going by saying that I believe that BJJ techniques make excellent finishes when grafted on to KS techniques!
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2011
  12. JTMS

    JTMS Valued Member

    Haha! Only if one is feeling homo-erotic (Please don't ban me! Please don't ban me!)
     
  13. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    If your teacher could figure how you learn CZ, I guarantee you could remember all the the techniques in and out of order. I have had 11 year old students that knew the entire Adult curriculum Except or Dahn Doh Makki. Inside and out. I have found that teachers are the ones that need to learn how you learn. After that it is a breeze.

    On the subject of Mastering a Technique I heard from several Masters that if you practice (perfect practice) a techniques 1,000,000 times you only know about 1/2 the technique. When does one Master a technique? 2,000,000 times 5,000,000 times? with 231 ( I include Sohn Ppae Ki ) techniques up to 1st Degree Black and the Most dedicated student practices them 10 times a day 5 days a week which equals 50 times a week.... with 52 weeks in a year you get 2600 times a year. so practicing them this amount it would take a student over 384 years to know 1/2 the technique. :bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

    Sorry for the MATH!

    An average student practices 2 days a week and does not do all there techniques each day. So what is the average amount of times a student does let say Ki Bohn Sool #9 before they get a Black Belt???? Anyone? Anyone? How many times should they??? Anyone? Anyone? Come on somebody bite....:evil:
     
  14. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Thanks Tulsa. Just to clarify the intention of my post, let me say that when I did Kuk Sool (I left about 9 years ago) I had memorized the entire KSW curriculum up to the point I was taught, by number. I now teach a different curriculum (but a few set, like Kibonsoo are almost the same), and I have memorized THAT curriculum.

    What I am asking (and this is a real question) is do you guys require students who are not black belts or instructors to know techniques by the number, in order….or is knowing how to do them well, but not knowing the exact order, good enough? I am just curious about what you actually require.

    In response to your question above, I would say that a lot depends on how many technniques you actually consider there to be, since all Hapkido curricula contain numerous techniques that overlap and are variations of each other.

    EDIT: Also, I don't know when you "master" a technique, but I'd say that a good indication of “understanding” a technique is whether or not you can do techniques while someone isn’t mindlessly standing stationary in front of you while grabbing you. For instance, if someone can do Eui bok Soo is someone is has grabbed their jacket and is trying to slam themup against a wall. In “free practice”, the techniques peole use are not actually exactly like the "numbered " techniques anyway, but are going to probably be grafts of different techniques that utilize the concepts learned in the techniques.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2011
  15. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Sorry... not this time. :Angel:




    You'll get no contention from me on this issue, Cz, as most soolers I've met were never taught effective grappling skills. I'm not saying that mine are up to snuff with the likes of the BJJ crowd, but for many kuk-sool practitioners, their grappling skills are virtually nonexistent. Since BJJ seems to do a good job in this department, cross-training in it or some other shoot-wrestling arts definitely gets my vote (i.e. if the instructor cares to venture down this path).


    And I think I owe you an apology... as I misunderstood why you were berating the memorization of so many techniques.

    It sounds as if you were going by the "old" chart, where red & brown belt were heaped with lots of technique sets, leaving only 3 sets for dan bo level (BTW, this is the schedule I prefer, but more on that later). Going by the chart mentioned, at blue belt, one would only need to know 45 different joint-locking techniques (KBS-15, SMS-11, EBS-13, ASMS-6) as maek chigi & maek chagi are merely targets to aim at with hand/foot strikes, and jew-muck maga KBS is all about teaching how to move into grappling range from striking range, rather than learning something completely new & different in terms of joint locks (note: JMMKBS is a viable set provided that you actually train it with realistic punches and not those silly *hang your arm out there for an eternity until it's grabbed* scenarios I've seen some schools embrace - sheesh!).

    Now if someone was progressing at an average rate, say 3 or 4 months per belt (based on a minimum attendance schedule), then it will be nearly a year before they are faced with the onslaught of techniques which occurs at the upper intermediate level (JGSMS-7, AEBS-20, DEBS-23), advanced level (TG-13, KJG-13, MJRG-5, BTG-10), or BB candidate level (YSMS-15, SS-15, DDM-15). IMO, they could walk away from further training at this point (i.e. 1 year; blue belt verging on red belt) and not be the least bit ashamed, as they would've learned pretty much what any TKD black belt would've been taught (granted, the forms are different, but you get what I mean, right?), in addition to knowing some fairly effective joint-locks.

    Once you make the commitment to go all the way to black belt, it just gets easier & easier, but let me explain why I think so. Rather than always refer to a straightened elbow lock as an armbar, reinforce the numbered curriculum by referring to it as KBS #6 (or similar). I usually like to go with the first instance of a particular lock as it appears in the curriculum, especially when addressing people of various ranks, as more people will be likely to correctly identify with the reference. But using the last known instance when teaching a group of students with similar rank, is another reinforcement tool a teacher can use (e.g. cite SMS #1 as well as KBS #6 when teaching EBS #2 or #5). Picking out bits & pieces from a technique can also aid with this idea. Bring to mind the wristlock in SMS #11 when teaching JGSMS #1, even though it's quickly rolled over as you execute the sidekick above the knee which enables you to drop your armpit down on their elbow. If you neglect to mention the wristlock when teaching this technique, then there's less of a chance your students will figure out how to take instantaneous control, which should occur the moment they break loose from the grip on their wrist. Referring to it using the number & set, instead of simply calling it what it is (palmar flexion), helps to reinforce the memorization process WRT the increasing number of techniques unleashed at this rank level. This method of presenting the material just might help from overwhelming students with the memorization of so many techniques.

    I also feel that while 3 or 4 months per belt is a suitable goal for the lower ranks, increasing this amount (perhaps even doubling it) is more realistic for the higher belt ranks, as one approaches chodan. The current trend adopted by WKSA, ruins the *correct* progression IMO. The order in which the material contained in the curriculum gets taught hasn't changed, but now one must reach red belt before getting to learn JMMKBS (previously taught at blue belt). What WAS red belt material is now taught at brown belt, and the brown belt & dan bo level material is meted out while people undergo a long series of tests for black belt (i.e. chodan). Personally, I see no reason for someone to be taking a test when they haven't learned all the required material, unless it's to help line the pockets of the parent org (sorry, slight political rant going on here). I can understand the procedure of making someone test more than once, so that they might attempt to get better at performing under the stress of a grading, but the way it's set up now speeds students along to the point where forking over the black belt test fee (nonrefundable, remember?) occurs within 2 years of starting out as a white belt, while the prospect of actually getting their black belt is held back until 4 or 5 years. I much better fancy the idea of not paying for one's black belt until the year it will be earned, which IMO can easily be attained with 3 years of diligent practice (and yes, most will NOT make it, which is as it should be with anything that requires a substantial effort — trying to increase this ratio by dumbing down the expectations of how well people execute the requirements, is yet another trend I'm unhappy about).

    By not introducing so much new material prior to the test for chodan (the old curriculum only had 45 techniques - many of which weren't really new but merely preoccupied with a different perspective, e.g. struggling against a 2-handed grip instead of a single grip), one can turn their focus to perfecting their skill with the techniques they have already learned. Merely *performing* the techniques against a nonresistant partner is hardly what I consider a "real" test. But trying to crowd 100 or 200 people into a small gymnasium starts to stray away from the *personalized* way I envision that a test for something as important as a MA black belt, should be addressed. IDK, maybe it's just me that sees a problem with the approach adopted by some of the larger MA orgs nowadays, but I get a sneaking feeling that it ain't necessarily so. :yeleyes:



    EDIT:
    It's the overlap aspect which eventually sinks into one's skull, and allows them to think CONCEPTUALLY in terms of the techniques, no longer bound by a specified entry to capture a joint-lock or disrupt an opponent's balance or momentum. The RIGID curriculum method of depicting a particular technique, then becomes reserved solely for the transmission of these concepts, using a handy reference (i.e. the designated curriculum).

    In discussing the numbering of techniques, I'm always reminded of the joke about the comedian's convention: since they all knew the same jokes, they decided to number them for easy reference. Once done, one of them says, "#35" and they all chuckle. Another guy shouts out, "#112" and they all roar with laughter. Next, someone says, "#67" although this time nothing is heard but dead silence. A comedian sitting nearby the last guy who spoke shrugs his shoulders and observes, "Some people can tell a joke, and some can't." ;)




    2nd EDIT:
    Well said! :cool: (despite the plethora of typos)
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2011
  16. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    That's the $1,000,000 question, right? Well I think it is impossible to master anything until one masters himself. Master yourself and learn techniques then you will be able to... "snatch the pebble from my hand grasshopper".
     
  17. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Got it, man this looks allot like Jelly Bean?:evil:
     
  18. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Jelly Bean?
     
  19. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Ok, the answer is depending on the teacher. Each teacher has his or her own standards. Then again with large based testing there must be some type of testing standard. Which is by the numbers in most Kuk Sool Schools. I have seen students in WKSA schools that did not know the techniques by number or even the concepts of what to do AND STILL GOT THEIR BLACK BELT. I have seen students that knew everything better most and they did not get theirs because of time requirements. The WKSA is a business and unforgettably they have to do things that I could not allow (reason #51 for my departure from the WKSA). This includes passing students that in my opinion where not ready for promotion. This is in ANY Style of School you go to. You will find this as the norm for LARGE schools and styles. (my opinion)

    So I hope this answers or brings more questions for you. I LOVE what I do and I prefer not to promote students to a Black Belt unless they have the same attitude. I kept a student a Black/Brown belt and never promoted them to 1st Dan because they could not or would not do what I required of them. I made my mind up along time ago that I have to live with my standards and if I lowered them I could not live with myself!:evil:
     
  20. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Never mind you still have the pebble, I just was eating some Jelly Belly Jelly beans....:evil: Buttered Popcorn Flavor .... YUM!
     

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