Medieval Dagger

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Louie, Aug 27, 2007.

  1. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    I've started this thread as a guide and interpretation of medieval dagger techniques.... Feel free to add your own interpretation, comments or pictures!!!!

    The first example is an unarmed defence against a thrust to the stomach, the defender has side-stepped & grabbed the wrist, twisted the arm and is about to employ a joint lock on the elbow... while the foot is in place to trip or sweep....

    Louie
     

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  2. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    What date is the picture from Louie?

    I'm sure Koyo will name that Aikido technique in one.

    The Bear.
     
  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Aikido technique is ura ikkyo. Judo technique is o uchi gari.And here is a picture of it.Added bonus is that is Chris about to be dumped. So do not say I am not kind to you bear. :D

    Comment. The wrist should be twisted so that the kisaki (point) does not point toward the defender.I also find it more effective if the right hand grasps gyaku (reverse) palm up.
    regards koyo
     

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    Last edited: Aug 28, 2007
  4. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Is it a straight arm on the pic you added, koyo? I'm not sure, as the resolution is a little blurry on my computer... If it is a straight arm, you press him to the ground by pressing on his elbow, right? Either the elbow breaks, and/or he goes down, right? That is shown in Fiores system, but as the opponent have grabbed your hair/neck/shoulder, and have a straight elbow.

    If the victim bends his elbow as a counter (as shown on the first pic), you can allso push the elbow forewards, pulling the victims hand onto his back, whic his called an "underkey" in the Fiore system.

    Depending on how the arm is actually held in that picture, you could allso try to go the opposite way, resulting in what Fiore would call an "upper key", bending his arm upwards and backwards.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2007
  5. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    The technique is a kaeshe waza (alternate technique) he had attempted to resist the pin/throw hence the turn and sweep. A bit like creating a technique from a "bind". As you say there are many possibilities from this kuzushi (unbalncing point). I recognise those you describe and would use them relative to any attempt of movement in the opponent.


    regards koyo

    Comment
    His arm had been bent at the point seen in the photo I am straightening it for more control on the ground.
     

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  6. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Hi PB

    Not sure of the date exactly, I don't have the full manuscript on this particular medieval manual. I would assume it's probably 14th-15th C (?).

    Louie
     
  7. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Identical technique is depictured in Fior di Battaglia from 1410, allthough this speciffic picture is not from Fior di Battaglia or Floss Duellatorum.
     
  8. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    You'll find that technique in Japanese koryu jujutsu like Takeuchi-ryu and in a couple of it's offshoots, Sosuishi-ryu and Hontai Yoshin-ryu. Feudal ryuha from the warring states period.
     
  9. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Fascinating thread guys. A meeting of the western and eastern ways. Well done. Absolutely fascinating. Looking forward to more your postings in this thread. :)
     
  10. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Figure-4

    Cheers Slipthejab!!!!

    Moving on to a Figure-4 armlock against a point-down knife attack - the defender is unarmed in this case, catching the wrist with his right hand, turning it back towards the opponent and slipping the other arm between the joint to form the figure-4 lock. If he continues to force the arm back the opponent should fall and/or dislocate his arm!
    (Watch out for your opponents left arm as he may try to hit you or attempt a counter!)

    Louie
     

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  11. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Same Figure-4 armlock against a point-down knife attack - but this time the defender is armed, locking the opponents knife with his own, turning it back towards the opponent and slipping the other arm between the joint to form the figure-4 lock.
    (This particular 'dagger locking' technique requires rather large blades and would be difficult to perform with today's razor sharp cutlery without slicing your fingers!)

    Louie
     

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  12. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Last on this technique is a demonstration of how the Figure-4 armlock should look (and a medieval guide to how you would practice it without a partner)

    Louie
     

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  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Louie

    I think the most important element in knife control is the alignment of the body and the decisiveness of the technique.The form of aikido we train in demands that EVERY technique is applied as though a knife may be invoved, even if we cannot see it.

    Below the triangular entry to an overhead strike (knife) The right hand drives an atemi under his reaction to defend his face. This pre-empts a strike with his "free" hand. You can see how the technique you describe can be applied.Incedently this is similar to the technique stolenbjorn describes as upper key in his post.

    regards koyo

    Just noticed figure four he is open to o uchi gari (inside leg reap)
    figure five Osoto gari (outside leg reap) as bear says nothing knew under the sun (or something like that)
     

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    Last edited: Aug 30, 2007
  14. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    This thread is demonstrating the close similarites between EMA and WMA. I think it shows the ridiculousness of the style-bashers out there, two systems independantly developed with such staggering similarities, we can only assume that both systems were based on tried and tested martial strategies.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2007
  15. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    What louie describes as a figure 4 armlock is allso shown in Fior di battaglia. Allthough this exact position is shown, there is shown 5 variations on the same theeme, where one of them is practically identical, the left hand rests on the wrist of the right arm instead of in the armpit, as it seems to do on the picture.
     
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    WE use another major principle in knife control and that is to turn the knife against the attacker. This is possible with only a slight adjustment in almost all of the techniques. Is this common in other schools?.


    regards koyo
     
  17. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Yes, both to stab his own biceps and his own guts :D
    Fiore even have a funny (and for once a relatively unharmful) one, where he instead of stabbing the victim, leads the arm between the vitims legs, turns and lifts so he either gets his balls mushed or is forced to do a forewards flick :love: http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g20v_1.jpg
     

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  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    My eyes are still watering from Stolenbjorn's last post. :cry:
    I realise that these are drawings and may have been drawn by one who does not train against a knife but we have a principle...the kiskai (point) of the knife points at you ONCE (when he is attacking)Ever after it points toward the attacker (once you have control) or away from you. In the drawings it looks quite dangerous.
    One of the worse examples is in kote gaesh (wrist turning) The knife should be "turned where it lies" often the wrist is turned in a large circle (we never do this) which brings the knife dangerously close to the face of the defendant.
    THis make sense.?

    regards koyo

    wrist turned where it lies.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 31, 2007
  19. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Hi Koyo.... Both Philipino and Indonesian MA have disarms with the blade pointing towards and away from you.... the majority of which can be seen in many of these medieval manuals.

    This technique shown in Stolenbjorn's illustration - re-directing the blade arm between the opponents legs is also taught in Indonesian Silat - usually when the attacker stabs 'from above' with the knife in the point-down position.
    With his right hand, the defender catches the opponents wrist & using the downward momentum re-directs the arm so that it travels between his opponents legs (or into his thigh). Stepping/turning behind the attacker he can switch to the left hand to catch the wrist and use the right hand to firmly grab the flat of the blade and push/press down, levering the blade out of his opponents fingers.

    Louie
     
  20. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    This Talhoffer illustration shows another disarm, this time using the left hand to catch the opponent on the inside of the wrist and using the back of your forearm against the flat of the blade to lever it out of his grip. (known as the 'Sheer')

    The other illustration shows two basic guards/stances -
    The 'hat' involves holding the grip and blade with both hands, using the edge to block.
    The other is the 'doubtful thrust' hiding the weapon behind the body and potentially using either hand to strike!

    Louie
     

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