maybe old news but i found this quite disgusting.

Why does he need to? What's he going to find that other people haven't found? Donn Draeger, Roy Ron and even Shoto Tanemura-Sensei have looked and found nothing. This whole saga really needs to move beyond the "no-one's bothered looking" stage .... people HAVe looked.... When a Japanese budo expert AND a policeman like Tanemura-Sensei has already looked and come up empty .... that shouldn't be ignored. If a cop can't find a trace of a person that is quite significant don't you agree?

 

missed this bit, where is the info on these people looking, wouldnt mind a look at what they said.

 

Most of the japanese people I speak to, when talking about ninja, they just laugh. Imagine, even in this day and age, Japanese being ignorant of what happened in the nation's distant past. Oh, the humanity...

or something...

 

Japanese record keeping

Last summer Japanese people everywhere were astounded by the Japanese Defence Agency scandal, involving the procurement of defence computer systems and training jets. An investigation into the procurement scandal subsequently revealed that Senior Defence Agency personnel had systematically destroyed most of the important documents concerned, including receipts and invoices.

This incident demonstrated the absence, in Japan, of effective laws, regulations and authority governing central records management that might have prevented such a historically unjustifiable act from occurring. For unfortunately, the practices involved in the Defence Agency Scandal were not exceptional, but indicative of common practice throughout Japan’s modern history. In practice, the management of government records in Japan remains subject to the individual practices of those who actually create the records—a state of affairs known as the “system of irresponsibility,” because it allows officials the power to destroy documents at their own discretion, without ever being accountable to anyone. Under this “system of irresponsibility,” the Japanese people will never have the means to properly check their officials’ accountability.

Any bureaucracy or any organisation requires documents and records for decision-making, and throughout its existence, dating back to 1868, the modern Japanese government has been no exception. Some important questions need to be asked however, concerning how official documents are created, processed and preserved in Japan. In this context, I would like to introduce some of the results from the JCIE studies regarding the proposed Centre for Modern Japan-Asia Relations.

taken from ;
http://ajrp.awm.gov.au/ajrp/ajrp2.n...a4a9b7f42f0568434a25677f00221ac4?OpenDocument

very interesting read !

 

An ordinary Japanese person knows that has not tried to find anything out about the ninja does not know any more than an ordinary person from anywhere else in the world.

You would have thought 'Budo' would be a widely known word too, epecially as it applies to almost all their martial arts, including the obligatory school kendo classes, but most Japanese I've spoken to have never even heard of budo, and only show recognition if you mention a specific popular art like karate or iaido.

And even though they have heard of ninja, most of them do not realise that ninjutsu is still being practiced and find the idea of white and black people fromm across the globe signing up to become modern day ninja about as amusing as we would find a Japanese Druid.

 

Very true you make some good points. Nice to have you on board.

My comment though was aimed at some of those English-speaking guys on the net. It’s just one of the things that annoy me, when people misquote "something” they see on another board and start spewing it as fact. It's those that can’t be bothered to get off their backsides and do even the most basic research beyond MAP and Bullshido and then spew junk thinking it is God given that narks me. :woo:

 

Haha a Japanese Druid! What about a Japanese Cowboy... oh wait, wasn't there a documentary about a Japanese Cowboy on Discovery?

Although i must admit i have yet to see a black ninja (negroid, excuse the pun).

Joking aside the Japanese have a bad history of keeping records. They are very bad liars so their documentation is sound but theres this culture of control and saving face as previously mentioned. They seem to have this bad habit of making important paperwork disappear.

I wasn't aware that Tanemura had made his own investigation into Toda Sensei, i wouldn't mind a link or two corroborating this statement.


Just to throw in my own little story. I can't trace my family history back later than WW2. All i have of my great grand father is a name and a picture.
And here is the crux of my story. We immigrated (as a family) but my grand parents stayed behind, recently both my grand parents died and due to the nature of the country they lived in all their belongings were stolen, destroyed or auctioned.

Makes me sick to my stomach realizing that all my family history is now lost and can never be recovered in any form.

What this story is trying to illustrate is that history becomes lost and we can't dwell on the past. This lineage argument doesn't bother me at all. Even if it was all made up it doesn't change the fact that the Bujinkan is the most effective Martial Arts system i have ever come across.

Those who spend too much time arguing about inconsequential things (If Toda did exist would it really change anything or shift our perceptions?) would be better off putting their time and energy into more important debates.


Does God exist? How many Angels can dance on the head of a Needle? What happens if you enter a Black Hole?
These questions don't have any bearing on how we live our lives here and now. Neither does the existence of a man who lived over 100 years ago.

Oh and just to polish off my wonderful post with another question which bears relevance. Did Jesus really exist???

 

None as long as you look at them, don't turn your back. Don't look away. And don't Blink!

Actually it's not as bad as you think, made me a bit nauseous last time but anyway it'd take too long to explain and I wouldn't want the thread derailed too much.

Yeah and he still owes me money.....hmm wonder what that'd be now with interest.

 

Elf Tengu posted

Or even as amusing as an English Druid.

Garth

 

So some people are said to have looked into the claims of the Togakure ryu.

That is a claim. A positive statement. Can it be proven? Are these people on record in a book or something as stating the opinion they are said here to have?

If one of us said we looked into the art and found it authentic, then we know that someone would ask for details and proof. So it seems only fair that we know that the people who supposably looked into the art actually did so. Did they themselves make some sort of public comment that we can check for ourselves? And exactly how much work did they put into it and what sources did they try to check with? I have looked into things and not found anything because it was only a short check. How do we know this is not the same thing?

And we know there are sources in Japan that accept the Togakure ryu. So there are folks that supposably say it is not historical and there are sources that say it is. Who are we to believe?

And again, we know that people from our dojos have used this to save their lives. And we know that Hatsumi-sensei is being as honest as he can. Unless you are studying this art as some sort of historical hobby, I do not see the problem.

 

Sorry Greg, I'm not going to take a day or two as holiday and go to Kobe to do work that should have already been done by your Grandmaster.

If he can't be bothered to do it, what makes you think I would?

If he has done it then he isn't saying anything about he results, if he hasn't then why hasn't he?

It's not my place to prove Takamatsu's claim, it's up to those who stand behind it. Namely Hatsumi...Since he has not done so that is a final answer for this question..

It's simply not worth my time to attempt to disprove this negative statement..I have a job and training of my own that I want to do...

You want to know? Come here and do it yourself, or get one of the Bujinkan affiliated people here to do it for you.

Until then the question will remain unanswered.

 

This issue is not mine to ask about, that I agree with entirely, I am simply curious. However, it is directly your issue to ask about...It's your school.

I have a list of names of people I have spoken to about this who were here, in Japan when the request was made. They spoke to those who decided and had dealings with the group that did so. That is not hearsay, that is secondary evidence..It's only not primary because most of those directly involved with the dismissal of the claim are now sadly deceased..

There are still a few of the original group around however, and I have been told on strong authority what they thought of the claim.

If you need to know more PM me...I will not put these names out on this forum.

 

Honestly, if someone in the Bujinkan were to give that type of answer would you be satisfied?

If we were to say that we knew folks that had examined something and found it backed up what we think but did not want to give their names, would that be enough for you? If we could not let others see the direct statements by these people or let others examine what they had examined for themselves, would you leave it at that?

Hatsumi sensei has given all the information that he has as far as I can see. He may not know how to run down Toda sensei and may not care as much as others. We can't help folks so we tell them to go to people like Soke if they really care about the matter. There are arts that claim to have originated with ghosts, demons or goblins. Can these arts prove that these things happened? Are they any less legit because they cannot? Is any art that claims to have sprung from a famous hero or mythical source to be challenged even though the possibility of their story being true is much less? Or is the fact that the teacher has laid out all the information he has as honestly as possible more of an issue?

 

Hey Grim,
I have no problem with revealing sources, and have already done so twice for people who have requested it from me. As I said before twice, I am not prepared to give the names out on the forum.

I don't need to say it again..So I won't..

The information is not entirely secret, just enough...That's not unreasonable at all...

My regards.

 

Sorry i should have said YOU in the plural meaning, not you, but anyone who is interested.

Why would be do it? he probably doesnt need to.

Has not doen what? proved Toda existed? can you please tell me why he should supply this info to internet warriors?

And we have jobs and training so do you think we all have time or care to prove the facts?

i dont, i really dont care, and neither do others, its just pigheaded people from other styles who are getting bent out of shape like yourself & Flashlock.

Exactly.

 

no its not, i practice this art for reasons beknown to myself, the concern if some guy existed is not in my mind, only in yours.

oh right, just like Takamatsu's dead?

"i have been told"? i have been told Toda existed by my teacher who trains with Hatsumi, theats secondary so now you must believe me, sounds as crap as your excuse doesnt it?

PM me the names and email addresses and i will contact them for specific details.

 

Since all the rest of your comments are not valid at all and simply re-iterate what I posted before I'll only address this one;

It's your school, up to you what you know about it, and whether you care as well of course...If you have an issue with other people asking about it then that's your issue..

If you asked me a question about my school I would answer it if I could, and say I don't know if I didn't....

Instead we get another stream of anger from you for asking a question that to all intents and purposes has a very simple answer.. "I don't know..."

If the majority of the Bujinkan don't care about roots and the history of the arts you study enough to ask those questions that's okay..Your loss...But don't be offended when other people who would like to know ask here..

No need to get offended at all actually..I didn't even insult you this time..

I can do...There's still time in the day..

 

no one has an issue, its just that you dont listen.

ok, over and over again we have said we dont know, i would love you to prove it, but until that day WE DONT KNOW ASK HATSUMI!!! is that clear enough?

i'm not angry, i love this kinda stuff, makes life interesting, but again, how many times do you need to be told, WE DONT KNOW ASK HATSUMI!!! is that clear enough?

yes, our loss, not yours, and if we dont know we cant help you, constantly asking for proof you are not going to get is just wasting your time isnt it?

offended by you? sorry mate, got thicker skin than a rhino, i had 2 older brothers, you couldnt even scratch the surface.

ok thank, let me have them and maybe i can get the ball rolling for that bit of proof.

 

And for a moment there I wondered why people like Meik Skoss and Ron Beaubien refuse to get involved with Ninja politics again...

Thanks Greg..Nice summation of all that was said to me before by men I respect..

I'm out..Thanks for the chat..

 

We've done that. We have told people that we do not know and pointed them to where maybe they can get answers. When others have made claims, we have asked them to back it up.

As it stands, no one has been able to give us any proof that they have looked into the matter to any extent before making statements that there is no proof. If they did indeed look into the matter, I would like to know how much and how seriously they did.

But we do not hear from these people directly, only the statements attributed to them. That is hearsay no matter your own relation to it. So we don't even know if the people that supposably looked into it actually did or to what extent. There is no proof that we can see.