maybe old news but i found this quite disgusting.

Just to put into perspective how difficult it is to do any real research on finding someone that may have existed, I have been trying to find my father on and off for the last 3 years using the internet, Census files, and Yellow pages and so far nothing, all i have found out is that he was from Hull, and served in the British army.

Now based on the fact that i am only 43 years of age one would think it was fairly easy but not so. You see it seems that even here in the UK paper records are not easy to find.

Flash back to 1993 when I was applying for university and having to get hold of my school grades only to be told by one of the senior lecturers that as they were papare they probably do not even exist anymore.

Can one then see how difficult it might be to find Toda. If its difficult to find my records of qualificatio even without an invasion by enemy troops and an atom bomb being dropped on my country.

But then if I can't find my father maybe I dont exist.

Garth

 

Some decent points made here ... but ... people are forgetting or ignoring one important thing: it's NOT just a bunch of white, English-speaking guys on the Internet that we are talking about ... it's also many of the most knowlegable and respected Japanese scholars and experts that doubt Togakure-Ryu is real.
For example, Ron Beaubien supplied a list of names on ebudo some time ago (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36669&page=2&pp=15)
This is what he wrote:

So ... you cannot really claim that these Japanese men have never been to Japan or don't speak any Japanese!!! Can you? ;-)

So to summarize ... it's not that Togakure-Ryu is being doubted only by some lazy ignorant white boys on an Internet forum... if there was any evidence to be had by going to Japan and looking there, wouldn't Irie-Sensei, Watanabe-Sensei and Muto-Sensei have found it by now? And wouldn't the Japanese authorities of the Nihon Budo Shinkokai have allowed Togakure-Ryu into the organization? The fact that these Japanese people did not recognize it as genuine speaks volumes ... certainly they would know what they are talking about huh?

 

Great. Basic Google-fu will give you a more than substantial list of respected Japanese scholars. However, unless the half-arsed arguments under discussion are providing explicit citations of research by these individuals, then they're guilty of appeal to authority and those who accept their conclusions are merely affirming consequents.

 

Well seems to me that so far they have NOT found it as yet. Maybe they have failed to look in the correct areas and asked the correct people or maybe the evidence does not exist or maybe they are correct. Lot of maybe's, but history of any kind is full of maybe's what if's and opinions that are held like some diamond by the mainstream. Science is similar they all hold their mainstream ideals close until it is proven to be wrong , normally by someone studying some thing else and they trip over a fact that upsets the apple cart and then the main stream all jump on the band wagon.

Why would they just have allowed it ? Would they even want it due to the fact that it was NOT considered a Martial art per say of the classical type martial arts more a set of counter techinques.

The FACT that these people HAVE NOT at this point in time recognized it means nothing other than they do not recognize it . They may well know what they are talking about but by the same standards they can only talk about what they know

 

I'm sorry...But this statement is so loose it really doesn't deserve the sentance I have given it..

These experts know Koryu better than perhaps anyone else on this Earth..That is the entire reason they do what they do..

They don't let everyone and anything in as Koryu..Because not everything IS koryu...

Somethings are just Bujinkan..

Hatsumi made a claim, that claim was not backed up by the evidence he provided and so the claim was dismissed. If he wishes to prove this claim NOW all he has to do is find the evidence that he lacked before..He hasn't done so..What that means is anyones guess, but an educated one would be either that he cares not, or doesn't have the evidence to give..

Is this really such a hard point to understand?

 

The Japanese do not revere the Ninja as much as foreigners do. Actually quite the contrary, the Ninja in Japan is considered evil, untrustworthy and as an icon of rebellion. (And going against the grain is very much the worst possible virtue in Japan)

A modern analogy to the Ninja are extremist Islamic groups. Due to the powerful nature of western media we have gained a certain viewpoint. I don't want to take the thread off on a tangent to discuss whether extremist Islamic groups are evil or criminal. But you see my point, they are a small group using *dishonorable* (unconventional) tactics and have a very different viewpoint on the world then the rest of us.

Another interesting analogy could be the Ganguro fad in Japan. Japanese have a tendency to believe that if they completely ignore a problem it will go away. Japanese more so then the rest of the world hate it when someone goes against established traditions.

It's not that this information can't be found but it's whether the Japanese will make a conscious effort it find or acknowledge it.

 

And God, can we please get right away from this "Ninja were not respected in Japan because they have always been pigs offal to the Samurai" rubbish..

Whoever told you that read too much Clavell..

 

how do you know they are looking? do you speak to them regularly?

Do they exist?

 

Did you miss this part of my post ?

"Well seems to me that so far they have NOT found it as yet. Maybe they have failed to look in the correct areas and asked the correct people or maybe the evidence does not exist or maybe they are correct."

 

do we have evidence that this actually happened or more interent heresay?

 

What your saying that politics do NOT affect this matter in the least ? Thats pigs offal.
There is politics between military units of the same armies let alone the grudges that are long held within japanese culture.
While I agree with you that there certainly is no clear lines between Samurai (as a class) and what are called Ninja ( could be from any class ) to try to say that politics does not enter this in any way is just a jodan.

 

You live in Tokyo so you would know i suppose.

But this is very much the impression i get from exchange students who come over to Australia.

 

That Hatsumi attempted to join the Koryu groups is fact..But since he was turned down there is no record of his joining date (or dismissal date) in public records here.

As for politics, they certainly do affect a great many things, but on the balance of it all, being an American Soldier stationed in Japan is probably lower on the pecking order than being from a Ninja family..That persistant idea was not so far from the truth but missed several important things and has no place in a discussion such as this.

To insinuate that Ninja history (From the Meiji period onward at least) is blurred due to Samurai distaste for Ninjutsu is a poor answer to give, and one that misses many of the points of this thread..It's a disservice to the actual history here, and to those who know about it and should not be used as an answer here.

Fireandsteel, I wasn't speaking to you only, I made that statement more as a rhetoric intended to show my dismay at how many people can't see why this is not an issue here in Japan...

Far be it from me to disagree with Exchange Students, most people here would follow the general idea of Ninja as portrayed in things like Naruto, Nin Nin, Shinobi (heart under blade) and other Chanbara stories..That's like saying there has been a war between Vampires and Lyken going on since before Togakure Ryu was founded...It's not entirely a statement based on fact..

 

so on one hand we can have the debate about Toda not existing because there is no paperwork but then the above is fact ALTHOUGH there is no paperwork, great, double standards.

How can one be fact and the other not when they both have no evidence? the whole Hatsumi story could be heresay unless you can actually get evidence from the people who dealt with it.

 

I have been told in interviews with people who would qualify as Secondary sources...They were present at the time and talked to the men and women who examined the claim when it was made, some of whom have already been named here.

If you would like names PM me..

This is not a figment of a viscious anti Ninjer coalition either...Just for the record..I think Naruto can be pretty cool, although masks in summer suck..

 

Secondary sources? would Hatsumi be a secondary source for proof that Toda lived? same deal here, lots of people making claims but nothing firm, just some lip flapping......

If they are open enough to say it happened then displaying the names on here should not be a problem.

No one's saying it is, but until someone can prove that Toda did not exist then we have to either believe or disbelieve Hatsumi that he did, we have no other choice, i dont suppose Hatsumi could give a crap what we all think and debating the subject about whether a dead man existed is going to go round in circles until a Takamatsuden student attempt to prove it or some internet warrior gets off their fat lazy **** and does some indepth research and disproves the subject.

Same as the Hatsumi story, no real proof it ever happened apart from third party conversations

 

ROFLOL sorry this just struck me as so funny considering the topic

 

Not at all, it has rather more to do with Japanese politics and face saving than with lack of evidence.

The applications that are turned down are not written up and reported on because they are non events...

They are known and reported by and to those in the groups but outside of those it is no ones business...Not mine nor yours..

As I said, there are people who were here when the claim was seen and have spoken about it both online and to me (and others).

Kinda like Toda having a neighbour who remembered him and said he knew the school....Oh wait...That ain't here either right?

More passing on of the issue at hand?

 

Hatsumi may or may not be in a position to prove Toda was Takamatsu teacher. The Fact remains that Hatsumi was NOT a student of Toda and would only know of him from what evidence he has at hand.
Secondly no matter how, if, when or why or under what circumstances Hatsumi presented stuff to join a Koryu org, he is no dummy when it comes to Martial arts history himself and I am sure would not be stupid enough to go and present something to a koryu org that was blatantly false !
Many arts have NOT been accepted into Koryu orgs this does NOT mean that they were fake false or their lineage was not what was stated, all it means is that they did not met the standards to document this to enter said org. Many arts have been rejected for this reason.

 

ah that old chestnut.

Because maybe they never happened???

Right, so Toda was in Hatsumi's group but outside of those it is no ones business...Not mine nor yours..?

Heresay, give us evidence.

Exactly right.

What issue? that no one can be arsed to do some investigating to see if a man existed 100 years ago? you are in Japan, why dont you make a start....