maybe old news but i found this quite disgusting.

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by dannysnightout, Jul 7, 2007.

  1. dannysnightout

    dannysnightout New Member

    "Togakure Ryu History for the Rest of Us,"
    by: Roger Conant
    (posted to e-budo.com Sept. 2006)

    Togakure ryu originated with an extraordinary fellow named Takamatsu To*****ugu (1887-1972), who was born in Hyogo Prefecture. His family ancestors were probably samurai of some sort.

    [Understand that at the end of the feudal period in Japan, many samurai families were impoverished. Their properties were often seized by the government or massive taxes were levied on their land. Many struggled and went into various trades to make a living. The glory of their ancestor’s feudal days were some source of pride, embellished sometimes to make the reality of the present a little more bearable. That’s not at all to say family stories were contrived or false. But it helps to remember that Takamatsu was born at a time when the fortunes of the former samurai caste were at an ebb tide, one in which it must have been comforting, dealing with an unpleasant present, to recall the glory days of old.]

    Takamatsu’s story is typical of martial artists of his era. Weak kid, susceptible to illness and bullying; turns to the martial arts to strengthen himself. He probably dabbled in a variety of arts; we know he trained formally in a school of jujutsu, the Takagi Yoshin ryu, which he began learning as a teenager while going to an English language school in Kobe. Much later, Takamatsu became acquainted with the Kuki family and began training in their methods of armed and unarmed combat. Takamatsu also spent some time in China where he would have seen and may have trained in some of that country’s fighting arts.

    [Takamatsu’s licenses in Takagi Yoshin ryu and Kukishin ryu are the only independently verifiable certifications existing for the man. And not to take anything away from these accomplishments at all, but please understand that at that time in Japanese history, there wasn’t a big, big interest in maintaining these arts. Sometimes people inherited the scrolls and the headmaster’s role simply because they were the only ones around who showed any interest in them.
    At any rate, it is significant to note Takamatsu’s credentials in these two ryu. It is a common argument made by the masked minions that “Everyone says Togakure ryu is a modern invention but look, we can prove Takagi Yoshin ryu and Kukishin ryu are authentic in their lineages.” True. That’s like saying, however, that because I have proof of my birth in Virginia that I am a direct descendant of George Washington. These ryu account for only two of nine taught by Hatsumi and have never been claimed by anyone to be associated with ninjutsu. They also have no connection to Togakure ryu.]

    We know that Takamatsu also assembled an extensive collection of disparate techniques, strategies, and even some formal kata from all kinds of sources. (Some of these sources could have been Chinese.) He was active in the budo scene in Japan at that time and must have come across all kinds of people who showed him this and that. Additionally, he had access to a number of scrolls from various ryu, most of them either fading into obscurity or already extinct. He was like a collector of antique auto parts, a fender from a LaSalle, a Model T radiator, etc. All of the pieces were in good working order, without rust. But significantly, they were not a single model, nor could they be assembled into a working automobile without creating something of a weird hybrid. This potluck assemblage of skills had a major influence on the birth of Togakure ryu.

    Takamatsu later claimed one of his teachers was a bonesetter (something like a chiropractor) in Kobe, named Toda Shinryuken. When I say “later,” that is because there doesn’t seem to be any record, in letters or other literature Takamatsu wrote, of Toda before about 1950. That is significant because Toda Shinryuken is where all the fun starts, Togakure ryu-ily speaking. By some accounts, Toda was Takamatsu’s grandfather. By others, he was an uncle.

    Various dates for Toda float around. In some, he would have died before Takamatsu was even born. In others, Takamatsu would have been in his twenties when his mysterious teacher died.

    [This is a good example of a huge problem for the Togakure crowd. So many people put out so many different stories, on the internet, in books and articles, that it appears the “official story” is constantly changing or being revived. In some cases, it is. In others, it’s simply because too many people are pontificating. Ironically, this is some of the best evidence available that Togakure ryu is not a traditional Japanese martial art dating to the pre-modern era. In a real koryu, the headmaster and senior exponents keep a tight rein on who is and isn’t allowed to speak on behalf of the ryu. If a member starts mouthing off on the internet, for instance, he is quickly silenced by those above him and told he doesn’t have the qualifications to speak for the ryu, even if the information he’s presenting is correct.

    Toda is described as a samurai and the inheritor of all kinds of fighting art ryu. It isn’t worth naming them—although modern ninja can and do, in exhaustive detail—because chances are fairly good that Toda never existed. This drives the ninj-oids absolutely crazy. They stay up nights fussing about it. Finding evidence Toda ever walked and breathed would be, for them, like finding the Holy Grail. If they did, the internet would probably crash worldwide the next day, since they’d all be busy posting triumphantly the news.

    Toda is essential to the whole story of their version of Togakure ryu’s ancient history. He’s the lynchpin in the tale. Without him, there isn’t a shred of evidence Togakure ryu goes back any further than Takamatsu. That’s why they will swarm around any questions of Toda’s existence like paparazzi buzzing around Paris Hilton. They will change the subject, if you bring it up. They will call your sexual orientation into question. They will note that, in your question about Toda you used “lay” instead of “lie” and will launch into several paragraphs about proper grammar. Anything to avoid having to admit that Toda is about as real as Yoda.

    The evidence that Toda didn’t exist is convincing, simply from a practical point of view. The man was allegedly a professional type of physician. He allegedly owned land or at least had a dojo, the name of which is part of the lore surrounding him. He lived, not hundreds of years ago, but into the last century, well into Japan’s modern age. And he didn’t live in the woods somewhere; he was in Kobe, one of Japan’s largest cities at that time. Some accounts have him as a martial arts instructor to members of the Tokugawa family. Despite all this, several researchers have never found any proof at all that he was a real person. It hasn’t been from lack of trying. Or lack of records. There have been plenty of both. But nothing, no relatives, no tax records, no contemporary accounts other than those written or spoken about by Takamatsu. (“Oh, oh, oh, but wait! There’s a guy out there—my teacher knows the brother of a guy who knows him—who’s found a book that mentions there was once a guy in Kobe who was named Todo and that sounds a lot like Toda and maybe…” You get a lot of this stuff when the subject of Toda or Togakure ryu in general come up. But tell you what: if you have a choice between making the case of Elvis still being alive or Toda having ever been alive, go with the Elvis story. It’d be easier to document.)

    In addition to the lack of proof, there are several sources that dispute Toda’s existence. You may have heard of the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten. It’s a large volume that has very brief histories and lineages of thousands of martial ryu. The Togakure guys hate it. They write long essays on websites to preach to each other of its shortcomings. In truth, the Daijiten is a lot like the phone book. It’s safe to say that in most communities, most of us are listed in the phone book. The fact that we are not listed doesn’t mean we don’t exist. And we could quickly give examples of people who aren’t listed. But that ignores the fact that the vast majority are listed. In the case of the Togakure ryu, the listing in the book is pretty sparse and in at least one edition, the author gently ridicules the whole concept, saying many of the names provided by Takamatsu are fictional and the whole story of the ryu sounds like a fairy tale. Some context: the Daijiten is pretty dry and “just the facts.” So the fact that the writer would say this is interesting. Also interesting is that the writer was a personal friend of Takamatsu’s. He was a buddy and even he didn’t believe Takamatsu. In the Daijiten and elsewhere in serious literature about the history of Japanese budo, there is almost always a notation of “oral tradition” when Toda’s name is mentioned. In other words, the principal evidence—the only evidence—for him is that Takamatsu said so.

    [Why would Takamatsu, a competent martial artists in his own right, with legitimate links to actual martial ryu, concoct a fictional character like Toda? This question often serves as a kind of “proof” for the ninj-nuts. The obvious answer is that people do odd things all the time. Why does anyone watch “American Idol?” The short answer is: who knows? The more reasonable answer has to do with what we know of Takamatsu’s personality. Consider his situation: he has legitimate licenses in a couple of authentic ryu. He also has that disparate collection of techniques and methods he’s amassed from his own studies. Lots of cool stuff. But there isn’t any unifying curriculum. There isn’t anything that ties it all together. There are just lots of interesting little threads, all going here and there. This becomes a problem for Takamatsu, especially once he begins to teach, which he did. He could get in front of his students and say “Look, some of this stuff I learned in a haphazard way and some principles I picked up in China and basically I’ve just cobbled it all together.” Or he could come up with a tale that would tie all the threads into a single weave. Additionally, he could give it a little glow, adding nifty stuff about mysterious ninja figures. To do that, he needed a lineage. So in all likelihood he created Toda, who became the portal to an ancient history. Supposedly, Takamatsu, while he was in China, earned the nickname “The Tiger of Mongolia.” “That may be,” I was once told by a Japanese scholar of martial history who had a good enough command of English to be able to pun in it, “but Takamatsu was sure a ‘lion’ in Japan.”]

    Takamatsu’s story didn’t have to be all that great, frankly. Japanese students, as you probably know, trust their teachers and don’t ask a lot of questions. And the tales he wove were attractive. Nobody was going to sit down and make Takamatsu give exact dates or provide precise details. Even if they did, he could claim a lot of it was lost in the mists of the past.

    [Remember too, that what Takamatsu was teaching was interesting and viable. It was probably pretty tough, with hard training. It wasn’t that Takamatsu was making up crap. It was just that he was making up a crap story to explain how all the stuff fit together. He was taking a Model T body and welding a LaSalle bumper on it and adding a door from a Chrysler—and telling students it was a vintage car. This is an important point. The ninja-roos howl and moan whenever the historical context of their doings is called into question. They recite anecdotal evidence of their fellow practitioners being able to defend themselves against evildoers, of professional military men who have used their Togakure ryu training in combative situations, etc. This is a good example of a straw dog being set up. Remember when you read all these testimonies that there isn’t a single scholar, researcher, or historian who has seriously questioned the physical training promulgated by Takamatsu. It is their provenance that is in question.]

    At this point, enter Masaaki Hatsumi, another absolutely fascinating character. If you ever get a chance to meet the guy, especially when he isn’t surrounded by his fawning ninjettes, take it. He has a vast wealth of knowledge. He’s also a study in adolescent behavior. But that’s off our point right now.

    Hatsumi had done a lot of martial arts before he met Takamatsu, but he became enamored of what Takamatsu was teaching. He traveled miles on a weekly basis to train with Takamatsu and Takamatsu took a shine to him. Hatsumi had to be a good student from a technical point of view. And probably somewhat to Takamatsu’s relief, Hatsumi didn’t show a lot of interest in the history of what Takamatsu was teaching. He probably didn’t ask a lot of questions about lineages or such.

    [How do we know this? Well, we don’t for sure. But if you’ve read any of Hatsumi’s books, in English or Japanese, you’ll see his information on history is sketchy and full of errors. This was noted quite recently, in fact, in a review of one of Hatsumi’s latest books.]

    Hatsumi appears to have inherited the headmastery of the legitimate schools taught by Takamatsu, the Takagi Yoshin ryu and the Kukishin ryu. That’s no small accomplishment. He also inherited Takamatsu’s collection of various techniques, kata, and strategies, which Takamatsu had compiled roughly into something he was calling “Togakure ryu.”

    Okay, so Hatsumi’s got all this knowledge, he’s got some legitimate licenses in legitimate ryu, and he’s got a lot of charisma and a lot of enthusiasm for teaching. He has a small group of guys training with him in Noda, a little city in Chiba Prefecture, where Hatsumi was born. Ever been there? Probably not. There isn’t much reason to go there unless you’re a ninj-nut—or unless you want to make a pilgrimage to the home of Kikkoman soy sauce. That’s the place where the company began. Hatsumi and his boys are off in the sticks back in the early Sixties, doing their thing. They were training in white gi, fooling around a little with weapons, but it was mostly jujutsu-like training.

    That period—the Sixties—saw a faddish interest in ninja and ninjutsu all over Japan. It may have had something to do with the James Bond movie “You Only Live Twice” that featured a few cheesy scenes of ninja-like activity. Suddenly ninja were everywhere in comic books in Japan and on TV shows. There was one big clown, who appeared on TV programs to do amateurish hypnosis and sleight-of-hand, who was a “ninja.” Sooner or later, with all this interest in ninjutsu, the name of Takamatsu came up and while by that time Takamatsu was fairly old and rusty, that led people in the entertainment business to his student, Hatsumi. Hatsumi served as an advisor to TV shows and movies and before long, he was the “ninja expert.”

    Journalists and documentary-makers, most of them only semi-serious and interested more in the spectacular romantic legends of ninja than in any actual history (a trait later shared by the Westerners who found their way there) descended on Noda-shi and on Hatsumi. At first, as he did with Donn Draeger, Hatsumi explained he was “reconstructing” ninjutsu. Before long, however, he began asserting that he was the inheritor of Togakure ryu and was a ninja himself. That’s when the black uniforms started appearing and all the other accoutrements of ninj-o-rama.

    Did Hatsumi suddenly become a ninja because he saw a profit in it? Maybe, although that’s unfair if it’s used as the whole or even a significant explanation for what he did.
    Did he do it because he was dazzled by all the attention he was getting? Probably, to some extent. He was a professional man, a chiropractor-like doctor, and he’d had a university education. But Hatsumi is essentially a country boy, not terribly sophisticated and unprepared for all the attention. So it’s conceivable he “went with the flow.” People wanted a real-life ninja. He had the techniques, and so…

    What Hatsumi didn’t have, of course, was a lineage. Doubtless he was familiar with Takamatsu’s “Togakure ryu” stories. But as we noted earlier, Hatsumi was not—is not—a careful scholar. The vague stories Takamatsu told him were good enough for Hatsumi’s students. They didn’t ask a lot of questions. But a pivotal point in Hatsumi’s life came when Westerners started showing up at his door.

    In the late Sixties, Western writers in Japan started publishing stories in mens’ magazines about ninjutsu in mysterious Japan. In the early Seventies, the sumo writer Andy Adams wrote a book on ninja that became hugely popular with Western martial arts enthusiasts. He contacted Hatsumi, who appeared in illustrations and supplied much of the information to Adams. It’s a worthwhile read today because it demonstrates how much the story of Togakure ryu has changed. In the book, the ryu is only mentioned a few times. It’s described as a “700 year old” tradition of ninjutsu.” There is no mention at all of the “nine traditions” or a lot of the other material that is used to explain the role of Togakure ryu in Hatsumi’s organization. Because of that book, however, Hatsumi is fixed in the minds of many Western martial artists as a ninja. And it isn’t long before some of them are knocking at his door.

    Again, put yourself in Hatsumi’s tabi. You’re out in the sticks, doing your thing. Your stuff is an oddball, eccentric take on budo, way out of the mainstream. Then, without much warning, you’re being interviewed for books, asked to consult on movies. And lo and behold, here are foreigners coming to you and asking you to teach them the ancient ways of the mystic ninja. It must have been overwhelming.

    [Even very sober, very serious martial arts teachers in Japan can be reduced to near-ecstasy at the thought that foreigners are willing to come to Japan to learn from them. Even more exciting is the notion that they might have clubs or dojo in foreign countries. Japan is still insular as a country and a culture in many ways, especially outside the larger cities. The idea that Hatsumi would be able to tell people he had students in America would have been fabulous for him.]

    Hatsumi had no background in dealing with this kind of attention, nothing to prepare himself for this. And he had nothing to prepare him for the requests from his non-Japanese students for permission to teach or for ranks. He had to wing it, entirely. More troublesome for him, those non-Japanese students were asking questions about the history of what he was teaching.

    Again, we can’t know. But it’s easy to guess that’s when Hatsumi hit the notes he’d gotten from Takamatsu. He had to try to connect the dots his teacher left. That must have been a big surprise for him. A Homer Simpson moment. “Aww, crap! I can’t even find any evidence my teacher’s so-called teacher even existed!”

    Hatsumi has spent the intervening years, probably trying to verify any legitimate historical information he had and, to be honest, probably cooking up some stories to fill in the gaps.
    [Some of the admittedly few lucid Togakure ryu supporters will acknowledge, in the face of overwhelming evidence, that Takamatsu’s stories are often fiction. But, they insist, Hatsumi is being a good student by accepting what his teacher said. This is intended to let Hatsumi off the hook for any of the fraudulent history of the ryu. To some extent, it might. But most of us would say that as the leader of an organization, he is charged with being scrupulous, especially given the money and effort being expended by his students all over the world.]

    Hatsumi’s task became a lot more complicated in the last decade of the last century. The internet was blossoming; all kinds of information about Japanese martial arts was available. Additionally, more authoritative books were being written on the subject and several Westerners who’d lived and trained in Japan for a long time began to make a presence in internet discussions. They had no reason to lie or cast false allegations. Their comments on Togakure ryu were excruciating for the faithful Togakure crowd.

    [Good example: Hatsumi’s ill-fated attempt to have Togakure ryu recognized by the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, an organization that very loosely affiliates a lot of classical martial arts in Japan. Hatsumi presented scrolls, the Shinkokai politely dismissed him. This incident—or at least the retelling of it—burns the ninjers, as you can imagine. They have denied it, insisted it was the Shinkokai who approached Hatsumi, suggested it was a concocted slander. Anything but admit the truth. Too many people were there and aware of it, both Westerners and Japanese. Many more heard about it first hand from them. It happened.]

    What happened was that the faithful became even shriller and even less logical.
    Hatsumi, bless him, is a good teacher, from a certain technical point of view. [He is hopeless in terms of cataloguing his stuff. That’s one reason he’s coming up constantly with the “real” ninjutsu and why he riffs on “the technique I do today is not what I did yesterday.” He is so creative and talented he probably doesn’t remember what he did yesterday.] But he was in a bind. If he could have presented evidence of Togakure ryu’s ancient past, he would have. If he came out and told the truth, that the Togakure ryu was a modern amalgamation he learned from Takamatsu, his acolytes would have been angry and disillusioned. And he would have looked like he was defaming his teacher. His reaction to all this was to start talking in riddles, playing the eccentric mysterious master from the East, playing the “I refuse to wallow in the dirt with my less noble detractors” routine. It was a clever gambit. If you presented serious questions about the history of his ryu, he could play the part of the magnanimous teacher who, even when he was being vilified, refused to hit back. In an ironic sense, Hatsumi plays with illusions and psychological head games and that’s probably as close to real ninjutsu as anything he does.

    [I’m reminded of the only time I saw Hatsumi do what I think of as real ninjutsu. It was on a video. Hatsumi was quick drawing a sword. His grip slipped; the sword went flying off to his right. Without blinking an eye, Hatsumi said, “See, that’s how you handle an opponent trying to sneak up on your side.” It was utter bull, of course. But it demonstrated a nimbleness of mind that characterized the kind of personality who would have made a good spy or counter-intelligence operative.]

    Hatsumi has a definite flair for the theatrical. In his latest books he models all kinds of medieval costumes and finery. When one of his ex-students presented a demonstration of ninjutsu for the old Japan Martial Arts Society years ago, he explained that ninjutsu didn’t have kata and instead was taught through “skits.” That’s an excellent description and it describes the theatrical sensibilities of Togakure ryu’s leader. At one famous taikai where his students had come from all over the world to train with him, Hatsumi jumped up before the assembled followers and shouted “I am the only ninja!” It was typical of his actions, trying to be elusive, trying to suggest there was even more out there for him to teach, trying to keep the faithful fish on the line. Part deception, part con—but also probably part true. It was, in a way, a defining moment in the history of the Togakure ryu.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Fisrt off, I want to say that my intention is not to cause trouble. Im still pretty new to the Bujinkan and ive never met Soke or been to Japan,but i find it to be a horrble attack on not only the Bujinkan but the other X-kans as well as Takamatsu-sensei. I also heard claims of Soke Hatsumi withholding information by not teaching all the 9 schools. My question is what are everyones opinions?
     
  2. Paragonfortytwo

    Paragonfortytwo Resident Wierdo.

    History is nice. But what matters is if the stuff works here and NOW. Having a written consistant record doesn't matter a damn if you don't get home to mamma after needing to apply the skills you have learned. Period.
    Jen.
     
  3. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    It is not an attack Dannysnightout. just one persons/groups opinion and he/they are entitled to it ,he can't and has not proved his point one way or the other either and is only grasping at straws himself. If Takamatsu sensei's teacher was not a real person and one ryu is not real. That would mean the other Sokes from that ryu would also not have existed and would have to be made up as well . That then should be even easier for them to prove beyond doubt , so why have they not ?

    You only have to look at the disrespectful way he reffers to Hatsumi sensei's students to see he has some type of agenda or was somehow disgruntled when he found out that ninjutsu was not what he expected or wanted it to be. Then of course he could be totally correct in his opinions and that would mean we have all been given a very large lesson in the art of kyojutsu . Toda sensei may also have been a Tengu who only taught his martial skills to those with the eyes to see him who knows !:p
    :love: ;) :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2007
  4. K¡a¡

    K¡a¡ Valued Member

    The biggest hole in your points is motive!
    Takamatsu never said publicly that he was a grandmaster of ninjutsu, only after he died in his obituary his family released his historyof who he was Not hatsumi!
    He gained no money, recognition, fame, etc...
    So for takamatsu he held on secretly his teachings and gained nothing!

    And being a spy art which it was are you expecting some kind of paper trail?
    This was not the era of the internet, many arts were banded! there was war and no one was going to back anyone up they were the origins of what you call for todays special forces,
    Ghosts!
    It may very well be hard to find out historical info on ninjutsu becase they were under the so you could call radar, ghost! they did not exsist!
    They did not want anyone to know about they exsited so they could finish there missions!
    So they could say alive!
    The more who knew about them in a time of battles and war, the more who could turn against them, and could kill them and families for what they did!
    In our culture we want to be recognises for what we have done, but in takamatsu time they just wanted to stay alive!
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2007
  5. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    Thats likely the same reasoning that the students of Ralph and the Konigun crowd use when you attack their credentials. Given the boatloads of money Hatsumi is making off your folks he actually should be held to higher standard to prove system authenticity but to date he hasnt made reasoable effort to have outside verification of his documents or claims.
     
  6. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Valued Member

    Does he have to verify? Did Oyama verify, or Ushiba?

    The fact that it came to light in the 1950's does not mean it was born in the 1950's. the idea of the helecopter was a 20th centuary invention, but Da Vinchi thought of it a few centuries before. So who has claim to it? The modern inventor or the person who had the idea centuries ago.

    If numbnuts want to drag these "suggestions" over the fires of internet MA forums, let them. They can be shot down in flames, berated and called a troll, or just get called a troublecauser. Either way, it does not bother me. For it does not bother me what someone thinks of what system. I can say the same for MMA and how ineffective it can be. Doesn't hurt the UFC though, so who cares?
     
  7. Paragonfortytwo

    Paragonfortytwo Resident Wierdo.

    This year's £10 (2000Y) annual Ryu membership to Hatsumi-sensei is money well spent IMHO. :D
    Jen.
     
  8. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    So what? isnt 6 schools enough? i have trouble learning that amount.
     
  9. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    It's about £7 now with the yen so high :D
     
  10. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    There are so many incorrect claims and unsubstantiated "facts" in this mess that there is simply no place to start. Even his descriptions of the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten do not exhibit any knowledge of the various editions of the book that have been published (it was an ever-evolving "phone book" of sorts). Mr. Conant's timeline of the first foreigners showing up and the "ninja boom" spans about fifteen years, though he makes it sound like they were simultaneous. And so on and so forth.... :shake head:

    The only thing that *IS* "correct" in this document is that no English-speaker with an internet connection knows who Toda was. ;) No news there. Bujinkan critics have been throwing that out for years. Other than that gem, there is nothing of real value (or veracity) in this post, imo.

    It does no one any good to make up one own's version of history in order to "counter" the possibility that one's alter has done so. :bang: As Fire&Steel posted, almost everything in this tirade is unsubstantiated. How does that make it "better" or "closer to the truth"? :bang: It doesn't.

    Though I only have two posts up, the one on Authenticity contains some of my thoughts on the subject:
    http://blog.bushinbooks.com/other-stuff/history-and-stuff-2/authenticity-and-the-bujinkan/

    And this (if it were true) would actually *BOTHER* you? :confused:

    Hatsumi-sensei has *MORE THAN* nine menkyo kaiden or soke titles, yet he does not teach some of the schools (that he has a right to teach) altogether. That's his perogative.

    Enjoy what you are getting! I guarantee that it is more than enough.... ;)

    -ben
     
  11. rubberband

    rubberband Valued Member

    I am pretty sure that I read/heard somewhere that Toda trained Japanese marine invaders/sappers in swordmanship and potentially other skills during WWII... it has been so long since my involvment in the bujinkan... I can not quite remember where I learned this... I recall that it was from sword research and not from a bujinkan source... I thought I would add this for those who have the time or desire to look into it... there should be military records...

    take care, steve
     
  12. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    How is that possible? He would have been long dead by then. Nobody says he lived as long as even the 1920s, let alone WWII. Are you thinking of Takamatsu-sensei?

    People make mistakes in what they hear and passing it along. Your source may have had that problem. But since Takamatsu sensei says Toda sensei died a while before WWII while he was there, maybe we should not count what you ahve passed on as fact until someone provides proof.
     
  13. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Valued Member

    could be mistaking Toda with another Toda. You never know with the ideals of the Internet web warriors and their information.
     
  14. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Actually the post by Roger Conant is a well thought out and written post and in some ways echoes more than some peoples beliefs in the Takamatsuden Arts, which has not been helped by the way in which people studying the arts of Hatsumi have negated the questions posed to them by people outside the Bujinkan on the legitamacy of the Takamatsuden Arts. For as he says...

    Something that I too have come up against when asking genuine questions on certain things that relate to the Ryu Ha of the Bujinan that I want to know answers to, but instead of them being answered have been called a trouble maker. And I practice the Takamasuden Arts!

    Now some people have said in light of this post

    Yes sorry Jen it does matter. For if this stuff i.e the Togakure Ryu (which here I include some of the other schools under the umbrella) has been made up in the 50s then it means that both Hatsumi and Takamatsu were liars. And who wants to follow a liar? and secondly that there is no proof that this stuff actually works, i.e it was not used in the Sengoku Jidai but is actually younger than Aikido.

    So using an argument like history doesnt matter as though to say, it doesn't matter what the critics think is just denial.

    You see to me as a person practicing this art, History is important. Very important, and if the whole thing was made up in the 50s I would quit tomorrow. Part of it for me is that it has such a rich history and I actually believe, before anyone starts attacking me for what I just wrote above is that, and i'll put this in capitals so people don't misunderstand me.

    TAKAMATSU AND HATSUMI ARE NOT LIARS, THE TOGAKURE RYU WAS NOT INVENTED IN THE 50S AND THE SCHOOLS INCLUDING TOGAKURE RYU DO GO BACK TO THE SENGOKU JIDAI AND BEYOND.

    So lets not attack Mr Conant, or go into denial as though to say "Whatever" lets look at what he says because there are a few gaping holes in his argument. He says

    Lets take a look at that statement, where the key word is "originated"

    Now there are two ways that this word could be interpreted based on the dictonary definition

    Firstly that Takamatsu invented it i.e he was the originator, the inventor, which I think Mr Conant is suggesting.

    Or

    Secondly that it originated from, i.e it came to Hatsumi from Takamatsu, much like pasta originally comes from Italy, whilst forgetting that it came from China before that.

    In other words even though Takamatsu passed on the Togakure Ryu to Hatsumi it came through other teachers before that.

    Now of course Mr Conant then goes on to say in this relation

    Yet strangley although Mr Conant points out all this research that has been carried out in regard to Toda by several researchers he never names them. Which I must say I find quite strange. I mean who were these people. Were they trained historians.

    You see to me it sounds like these researchers must have had an interest in the Takamatsuden Arts. Were they students of Hatsumi, Tanemura, or Manaka? I doubt it, but they were, probably people who had an interest in finding out the truth, and if so for what reason?

    In other words was this research carried out exhaustively and in a non biased manner. One would hope so, but I doubt this is the case. And if it has been carried out why has it not been published in such a way as to say that these documents have been checked.

    Now I know its impossible to prove a negative, but you would have thought some one, one of these researchers for example could state that on a certain day they got permision to check the tax records of Kobe for a person by the name of Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda, or the Tokugawa Records, and to state that after checking the records the name is not there, but as far as i know this has not been done.

    What seems to appear instead is personal opinions by people who have a vested interest in proving the Toda did not exist.

    Moreover Mr Conant states

    He Continues

    But if Takamatsu was making up a figure that was pure fiction, then why make one up that would be so easy to prove didn't exist by having him live in a large city, teaching sword to the Tokugawa etc. Surely it would make more sense to say that he met a secret old man in Iga that taught hin Togakure Ryu and then subsequently died, which is the kind of argument used by other the real frauds when they invent a grandmaster.

    No Takamatsu actually does the opposite of this. He according to Mr Conant invents a character and instead of wrapping him in a mysterious cloak so no one could find out if he is telling the truth instead he puts him right in the heart of civilisation at the court of the Tokugawas no less.

    This would be like the the Konnigun saying. Oh yes my teacher is mr Saiji, and he live at number 42 so and so drive, Saitama in Japam and heres his phone number.

    No its not the best evidence that Togakure Ryu is not a traditional martial art its just that people put badly researched material on their web pages.

    And if this was happening I might actually start to believe that Hatsumi really did have something to hide, but no he allows people to broadcast this stuff around the world in books on the internet. Not quite the kind of action of someone wanting to keep a secret.

    But lets return to Togakure Ryu, and heres my main point. You see Mr Conant states

    Yet the Bugei Ryu Ha Daijenten states that Hatsumi is the succesor to a couple of schools from Takamatsu, as Mr Conant states

    But its not just the Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu though is it. As Karl Friday states

    http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~mckellar/aiki/2001/5.html

    So even a doubter like Mr Friday has to acknowledge that the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten lists Hatsumi of inhertor of more than two schools, although Mr Friday does state that actually the Bugei RyuHa Daijiten is little more than a list which kind of blows Mr Conants opinion of the book out of the water for its accuracy being no more than a list of Ryu Ha.

    Mr Friday also goes on to say
    Hmm strange that because we know of the legitamacy of the Takagi Yoshin Ryu, even other ryu ha acknowledge that i.e the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Guys, and even Mr Conant it seems,

    which just goes to show the accuracy of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.

    But and this is the point. You see Mr Conant says that Takamatsu needed to invent Togakure Ryu as in his opening paragraph

    But why?

    Mr Conant states

    What thats a reason. Because people watch the X Factor?

    He continues

    But he already had Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu and could have quite easily have called it Gyokko Ryu Ninjutsu, as its sometimes called today. It does not give a reason for inventing Togakure Ryu.

    Now anyone who knows based on what Mr Conant writes i.e

    But if you have ever studied Togakure Ryu you will see that actually the school itself contains very few techniques. A few methods of hiding, 9 combat techniues mostly done against a sword, a few ways of using shuko and some sword. Probaly no more tha 30 techniques total. Hardly a lot of techniques that have Takamatsu learnt yet have no connection.

    I think part of the problem here is that Mr Conant has got confuesd with the banner that Dr Hatsumi used in the early days. I.e Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. Many of us starting this art in the 1980s knew the whole art, Kukishin Ryu, Gyoko Ryu etc as Togakure Ryu. In fact many of us did not even know about the other schools then.

    But Togakure Ryu was used as a cover all, much like we use the word "Hoover" to describe all vacuum cleaners when actually "Hoover" is a make all of its own.

    Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu was sellable, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu probably wasn't especially after the general public were a little aware of the Ninja stuff through the Bond Movie "Live and Lets die" and "Andy Adams".

    Sure it made sense to concentrate on that name, but to think that everything under the banner i.e the Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, as well as the Kukishinden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu all of which are mentioned in the Bugei Ryu Ha Daijiten and other works are just a palce for all of the parts that Takamstu learnt and stuck together, as Mr Conant says

    Just shows the ignorance of someone who has never actually really studied the techniques that Dr Hatsumi and others teach.

    Garth
     
  15. garth

    garth Valued Member

    rubberband posted
    Which is exactly what i meant when i posted

    And on the forums it seems. Which is why people like Mr Conant can get away with saying

    Which is why Grimjack is right in saying

    Garth
     
  16. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    How is it possible that you can say that when your teacher has cut off all ties with the chosen succesor of Takamatsu sensei years ago in favor of marketing a "new, improved" version of ninjutsu? How can you say this any more than Wayne Roy, Robert Bussey or anyone else with a Bujinkan seminar under his belt can say that they practice (i.e. present tense) a version of a Takumatsuden tradition, which would mean that they have a current link with someone with at least a menkyo kaiden in a Takamatsu derived art.

    Really Garth, you should have left this out of the discussion instead of sneaking it in and expecting us to just accept it at face value. Just let it drop instead of us having yet another thread be hijacked by your agenda. I would not have responded had you not tried to sneak it in, so just let it go and not respond. If you really want to push the matter, start another thread on the matter. You and I both know that the moderators would not like that if you made it that obvious. So I don't think that sneaking in what you did would thrill them either if you make much of a fuss about it.

    You study under someone that used to study under a Takamatsuden qualified teacher. Wayne Roy, Robert Bussey and anyone who has been to a Bujinkan seminar can say the same. It is not the same as if you were part of a living tradition with current links to a source with at least a Menkyo Kaiden. You should not have tried to bring it up and expect anyone to not correct you. Just leave it alone or start another thread.
     
  17. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Grimjack I'm not even going to get into an argument with you. Even when i defend Hatsumi Sensei and Takamatsu in a thread you take the initiative to launch an attack.

    Am I still studying Takamatsuden Arts"

    Yes i am. It might not be what Hatsumi Sensei is teaching at the moment in his Bujinkan organisation but it is still Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu etc, and i acknowledge where Mr Hayes first learrnt this, i.e Hatsumi Sensei.

    By the way the UK seminar in two weeks is Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu Chuden Okuden Gata and Togakure Ryu. I think thats Takamatsuden arts is it not?

    Garth
     
  18. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    { The above quote is NOT Grimjacks post but Garth's ! I however quoted it out of Grim's post.}

    The question has to be asked here Garth. WHOM have you been asking ? People on the internet ? Or the right people who would know the answers Kuden ?
    See what I am geting at here is that everyone including Mr Conant say they want answers but they seem to fail to ask the RIGHT people.

    Plenty of people who don't know are more than willing to provide answers in the form of opinions. Just as many whom defend things said about their teachers or styles (while in good faith no doubt , BTW Garth this is NOT a shot at you or your teacher but people in general ) They are either from the lower ranks or have low level knowledge of the subject . If you want real answers you need to ask the RIGHT people in the correct manner at the correct time . The internet is not the right manner nor does it in most cases produce the correct people to ask such questions or produce the required results .
     
  19. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Fire and steel posted
    In a way i agree with you, but this is a forum, and exchange of views and ideas. And there on here some very knowledgable and high ranked people on here and other forums.

    So it seems just a legit to ask or pose a question, or even an opinion on a forum than anywhere else.

    Garth
     
  20. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Garth,

    The question is, did your teacher ever really learn these things in the first place? I can show up to a single seminar and see what is being taught and try to teach it as best I can. But unless I am perfect, I really should keep trying to go back to the source to try to see if I really had the right idea the first time or if I was mistaken.

    If I was full of ego, I might try to say that what I was teaching was the real deal as it was taught long ago instead of admitting that I was not a perfect student. But since I am not, I continue to go to classes and not try to cover over my mistakes with any excuses about how things were done in the past as compared to now.

    You are in the same catagory as anyone who has studied under Robert Bussey or someone who has has been to a few Bujinkan seminars. The teachers may have picked up a few things, but it is sheer egoism to assume that they learned everything.

    And I guess you will continue to press the point. Yet another thread hijacked by your need to press an agenda.
     

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