Matt Thornton's comments on Silat

Discussion in 'Silat' started by TomFurman, Nov 29, 2006.

  1. kerambit

    kerambit New Member

    In case you're not familiar with the rules of formal logic and debate, what you just said was what's known as a straw man. You're distorting what I said 180 degrees.

    Did you not read my post, or read it without comprehending it, or are you intentionally distorting it? I said that what Matt Thornton trains is great, but that it's a small piece of the puzzle.

    What you said just now as an example isn't flawed logic but perfectly good logic. It's the entire reason for weapons. If you think your tai chi and karate can defend you unarmed against an expert knifer, or even a good knifer, or for that matter an untrained, malnourished knife-wielding crackhead, you're stupid. You go ahead and train that stuff 8 hours a day. I'll pick up a $3 butterknife, and instantly I'm a deadly threat to you.

    What were you saying about flawed logic?

    If I could, yes, I'd sit in an armored personnel vehicle. If you don't agree with the logic of that, you should go back to LARPing in sailor suits.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2006
  2. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    fair enough perhaps i miss understood your post.

    Ok, i dont know where you live, but im guessing that your behaviour is considered paranoid regardless.

    And no i dont think tai chi or Karate will help me against a knife. My common sense and the use of my legs will. Even if those are not an option, i would rather be injured than go to prison or risk having to live with the guilt of having killed someone.

    where i live possesion of any weapon is illegal.
  3. kerambit

    kerambit New Member

    Like you say, fair enough.

    Not so long ago, England was called the "Green and Pleasant Land." That's not so much true anymore. Violent assaults are on the rise, dramatically.

    Paranoid? What do you train for? What do you envision a street assault to be like? Do you think it's going to be someone walking up to you and wanting to square off or play push hands?

    You might say my attitude is paranoid. I'd call yours babe-in-the-woods naivete. I've lived on the street in some rough areas of the United States during the crack epidemic of the 80s.

    How about a head injury, or having your face scarred up with a broken bottle, or being blinded with a knife, or being curbstomped and paralyzed? Or being raped and infected with AIDS, or having to watch while your girlfriend is raped before both of you are tortured to death?

    What the hell are you training for at all? You might give someone a hangnail.

    Paranoid? Do you live in some kind of Ken, Sagat and Ryu streetfighter fantasy of rules and fair play?
  4. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    Stop trying to pin me as a LARPer. I'm training for knockdown, not point sparring.

    Actually i would like to one day do an FMA, but i'm not gonna be carrying a knife or sticks around with me because nothing positive can come of it and the risks are huge. If you feel otherwise fair enough, i'm not trying to take away from your training.

    But the fact is training MMA will give you the best chance of winning a fight (minus wanting to kill someone or go to prison). remember that MMA is a set of rules not a style so i'm not saying one style is better, just that if it can be applied in MMA it works.

    I know that fights are dirty, but kyokushin is a dirty style. I do tai chi for fun not for self defence.
  5. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    LOL! And modest too!

    Or having a suicide bomber blow up beside you on the bus or getting struck by lightning or spontaneously combusting...

    Please tell me kerambit is either A) having a laugh or B) not representative of all Silat students.

    As for the whole TMA/MMA merry go round... enjoy!
  6. kerambit

    kerambit New Member

    I'm a self-serving *******. Sue me.

    I notice that according to your profiles the two of you are 23 and 24. I have a son who's going to be 20 this year. The other people who you appear to be arguing with are around my age except one who is... old.

    That alone should tell you something.

    Do you train? What do you train for, squared off fights against a single unarmed opponent of lesser skill level, lesser size and strength, on clean surfaces?

    Is that reality?

    Start frequenting some rough bars in Belfast and after a few months of that then talk.
  7. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    I know that in most cases im screwed anyway, being a small guy. However im learning how to take a hit at least.

    and as for going to rough bars... well surely thats just a lack of common sense.

    The sparrow never lands where the tiger roams.
  8. kerambit

    kerambit New Member

    That's not true. All the more reason to learn how to use a weapon. If you're doing the MMA and unarmed TMA game you're stacking the deck in favor of huge bruisers. Why do something where you think you're "screwed anyway?"

    The point of my tongue in cheek suggestion re: "rough bars" is that both of you are talking like people who have never ever been in a serious fight. Learn what it's like when someone's trying their best to kill you and maybe you'll see things a little differently.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2006
  9. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    "that guy" was my friend and instructor Alex Gong. Alex was a muay thai and K-1 fighter. he was not a "MMA guy." yes, he was murdered after chasing down a man on parole who had side swiped his car.... and yes, he was shot to death..... i can not see what bearing this has on matt's comments about silat. alex had no chance to respond to the gun.. the man was still in the car.... the only defense would have been to only get the licsense#and not chased down the driver ........

    please.. if you are going to use my late friend as an example.. .. at least learn his name and a little about the facts before you do so......

    edit - added for those that wish to learn a bit about alex's life
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2006
  10. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    Damage limitation. winning the fight isnt everything, surviving it is. There are so many factors and variables involved in a fight anyway so you can never be really prepared, there is always "what if's"

    And thats not neccisarily true about huge bruisers, look at genki sudo vs butterbean. Or any of the people that have beaten Bob Sapp.

    There seems to be a myth that there is no art in MMA but that really isnt true, technique is a major factor.#

    (in case there is any confusion i dont actually do MMA)
  11. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    here here kmguy8,although i didnt personally know alex gong he has a good reputation in the muay thai community and doesnt deserve his name to be brought up in this type of debate.
  12. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    HOLY!!!! :eek: So, you're saying all of these things have happened to you, or are you just posting worst case scenarios. How do you train for these things? I mean, what's the defense against AIDS, or the defense against torture?

    For the rest, I guess I'm not seeing where the real conflict is. I mean, if you really do train in an alive manner against as many random, non-compliant scenarios as you guys are alleging, I don't see where the conflict is. Here and on Bullshido, I've never seen anyone get on any school that trains in some sort of realistic way. I know some styles of TMA have a bad rep, but there are many exceptions within a TMA where schools are recognized and respected for doing exactly what you guys claim to do. TKD is a good example.

    So, again, I'd be very interested in learning more about Silat and how you guys train, specifically for all of the "street" scenarios you guys are talking about.
  13. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    What do you guys think of STAB? the survival tactics against the blade that the straight blast gyms use(as far as im aware) to train blade self defence.
  14. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    1. I wasn't arguing with you. I was merely pointing out that saying something along the lines of 'has anyone noticed how smart we all are?' is well... silly.
    2. Congratulations on reaching middle agedom but it still doesn't really add anything to your arguments your making. Also, I was not criticising ALL the Silat people's opinions I agree with some of them and as such their ages are irrelevant. I was criticising YOUR opinion which seemed deeply more paranoid than is necessary.
    3. If your attempting to point out the validity of an art by the average age of a practitioner then Tai Chi wins hand down.

    I train primarily because I enjoy it and I like to be fit. Competing is part of my motivation but not a major part and especially not now when I'm in my final year of uni. Self defence is also part of my motivation and Im actually pretty confident in my ability to defend myself/run away fast/avoid bad situations. Hope that helps.

    It's training. Do you wear your normal clothes when training or a silat uniform? Do you train with broken bottles or with traditional Indonesian weapons?

    All training is artificial it's the abilities that you gain through training that you would use in a self defence scenario... and I'd like to point out at this point that I haven't ever said silat training is ineffective. I'm actually intending to stay away from that topic.

    Your free to believe if you want that athletes who train in combat sports would fall to pieces in a real street fight because there is no ref or cornerman, they would stop after 3 or 5 minutes because they would think the round was finished and they'd obviously be sticking to the rules of your standard ring fight... but again... that's silly.

    Off course people who train realistically against knives are going to have an advantage over people who don't if confronted with a knife wielding maniac. Off course some techniques from competition orientated martial arts would be practically useless in a street fight. Thats all common sense. But what I also think should be common sense is that many techniques that work in a ring would work just as well if not better on the street and that athletes who train to knock other people out for a living are going to A) not be an ideal victim and B) going to stand a good chance of defending themselves or escaping. As for those who aren't at that top level the same thing should apply but just to a much lesser extent.

    I lived in Belfast until I was 18 and go back there every summer. I've probably frequented more of the bars there than you know exist.

    Bar boasting aside... I'm not denying bad situations happen I just think your 'potential situations' list was completely over the top. Even in the roughest bar in Belfast you'd have to be the unluckiest guy on the planet to find yourself in a situation where your forced to watch your girlfriend get raped before being tortured to death. You've got more chance of winning the lottery. Also it's probably better in the end to just stay away from 'rough bars' if your that concerned about your safety.

    EDIT: And hows this for a story that might help alleviate some paranoia. My uncle was in the Devenish just down from Finaghy (Im assuming you've been to Belfast and know your bars from your advice) when the UDA burst in and opened fire. He received a bullet to the forehead (no MA training would have helped) and guess what? He survived (after a long coma) and is still about today (all be it with a metal plate in his head). Moral of the story is no martial art will protect you from everything and that not every 'real' situation ends in the worst possible way.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2006
  15. kerambit

    kerambit New Member

    CKava: Unfortunately, and I wish this were otherwise, but nothing I mentioned is as uncommon as you might think here in the US and getting more common in the Commonwealth, to say nothing of 90% of the world's populated landmass.

    Here in the states we have these things called home invasion robberies.

    Ever been in a small one-story house in El Cajon, California at 2 AM with the phone disconnected and three kids crying in the other room because there are Mexican gang members running through the yard breaking windows and kicking at the doors which you're praying will hold? I have.

    Ever see a friend of yours start **** with someone over a t-shirt someone threw on his car hood and end up getting stabbed for no damn real reason?

    Ever been to a US county jail?

    Ever been anywhere in Africa, Indonesia, the Phillippines, Los Angeles?

    You and I are talking about two totally different things. One thing is ring fighting and the other is fighting for your life. Don't get me wrong, MMA is great for what it is and I think everyone should do it to some extent, but they're two different things.
  16. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    If you truly live somewhere where your frequently facing the kind of situations you detailed then I think you should move and I also think spending time at a shooting range would be more beneficial than learning a martial art for self-defence purposes.

    Common sense dictates that if Mexican bandits, knife wielding pyschopaths and torture are part of everyday life in your neighbourhood then it's time to move.
  17. kerambit

    kerambit New Member

    CKava, "Move away" isn't addressing the substance of what I said. It wasn't intended that way but it borders on flippant. At the time, it wasn't an option for me and neither was a firearm (they're illegal for the most part in California) but they're priority #1 now as well as is living in a more rational area.

    The point is that moving isn't an option for most people, in most parts of the world. Your initial response was "You silly, these things don't exist" and now that I'm saying yes, yes they do exist, you're agreeing with me: escalate force, get a gun, get the hell out of Dodge. So we've made progress.

    If you're training for play, that's great. If you're training because you need to, do something that's going to help in a multiple attacker situation, against someone who's armed, in the dark, on concrete et cetera.

    I guess, Ckava, that I'm having trouble understanding why you're arguing at all. Is it just to argue?
  18. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Does no one learn basic Socratic logic in school these days?
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2006
  19. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Although its wise to have a gun in some situations its not as practicle as a small fixed blade and some good Silat Common Knowlegde. I have yet to see a MMA guy have the understanding of how to deal with multiple attackers & weapons.

    Even Erik Paulson would say well at that point you go for Kali....or a fire arm

    In otherwords the answers wont be in MMA.

    If you go to Brazil, Venezuela, or any south american Country the "Street" fight wisdom is called Malicia. Or Malandria. Its common that the folks are carrying a knife, a chain, broken glass, Sticks, pipes, and even in some cases Fire Arms. They do not fight in terms of "let me arm bar you".....

    They think in let me cut your ear off or lips off and stab you 36 x's

    I remember being 10 years old in Caracas and my uncle gave me a gift to carry when I would go out to the streets to play soccer. It was a "Chuso" a Shank made in an actual prison.

    Now why would my older uncle give that to me and not a text book or VHS or betamax video on MMA or BJJ???

    Cause in those places you need "MALANDRIA" just to survive and be a normal kid in the streets to play.

    Like being in any Ghetto you will find that having some common knowlegde of weaponry or multiple attacker knowledge might be what will buy you time on your life.

    BJJ may buy you time on a one on one situation but good luck turning your back to deal with one guy while you have others waiting for your Nikes or fall on your back and fight 3 - 8 guys trying to stab you for your american clothing. More reason to learn a system that deal with that sort of thing cause matts and the Octagon and a ref and medical assistant wont be wiating in the street.

    Last edited: Dec 2, 2006
  20. kerambit

    kerambit New Member

    Erik Paulson DOES do Kali! He studied for years from my Kali instructor.

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