Master Jangs martial arts in Chicago

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by DGarcia86, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    I wasn't looking to single out any group or school, but as for the rest as I have no connection to BJJ, and as this is the Hapkido Section, I will defer to your understanding.
     
  2. DGarcia86

    DGarcia86 Valued Member

    No Flame war at all just trying to get info
     
  3. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    In "my day". there weren't any testing fees.

    But nowadays the schools have to create more financial gain to cover expenses...(so they say)
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2012
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Just to side track a moment on the "no belt fees" thing that a few people have mentioned.

    Keep in mind that someone does have to pay for association fees, physical cost of belts, certification fees, costs of examiners (sometimes) on top of rent, bills, insurance, etc.

    Just because someone "says" there are no testing fees doesn't mean it's not included in the total cost you pay. In most cases, you pay a fee for the training. Whether that cost is listed out or not doesn't mean it isn't in there.

    I tend to prefer having the test fees separate... so I know exactly how much they are and when I am paying them. If the owner divides his total costs by his projected number of students to come up with a monthly fee, it means I am helping cover the cost of everything, whether I happen to be testing or not. At levels where you wait years between testing, that can actually be a marked difference in costs.

    So for you guys who "don't pay for testing", I will say that you probably do - it's just all rolled up in your overall tuition or whatever.


    EDIT - Just to add - I see no "shame" in paying for quality services that I appreciate. I know my time as an instructor is "worthwhile" and so is the time of my instructors.
     
  5. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Nope...Never had paid for testing

    It was not a "concept for gain" back then....:star:
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Did you pay for classes? Did you get rank?

    If so, you most likely paid somewhere along the line. If your rank is from a Korean system, everyone gets a cut of the promotion fees... somewhere your money went to your instructor, and to his instructor, and to a federation.

    It's not a matter of "concept for gain" - in a school, bills have to be paid whether you run a full time school or a small program somewhere. We pay for rent, bills, insurance, membership, etc. If you are paying for it, some of that money goes to your rank fees in some way. Ask your instructors if it costs anything for a new rank and see what they say.
     
  7. DGarcia86

    DGarcia86 Valued Member

    I don't mind if I'm paying testing fees as long as I know I'm getting good training and the place is well kept which it is. In fact I'm the only white belt so far I've seen in my class and I'm usually paired up with the instructor or with someone that has the black/red belt. I seen a few yellow belts that only been there a month and a half. Most of the mid level belts are in a later class, oh and I've only seen 3 black belts which are instructors and a kid that's 12 that probably got his in the Tae Kwon do class which is for the kids. As far as black belt testing goes Master Jang brings in other instructors she knew from Yong In university to take part in the test.
     
  8. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I guess you did not understand.

    Rank fees were "NOT" a concept.

    This means that tuition was for lessons, and testing was not considered as a financial resource.

    That said, saying that testing was part of tuition, when it was considered as such is no way in comparison to those charging for it..it was a different time/era

    For example, nowadays, people pay for tuition, black belt clubs, testing, etc, so there is separate costs

    Tuition back then was not in "concept" for these items, because it was for lessons, not clubs, and testing,etc.

    None of the money went for testing/ranking because it was not a separate financial concept

    Charging testing/rank fees is a concept to gain more financially and tuition alone can pay for overhead

    Testing fees had to become a financial concept to supplement what tuition alone could not do because of economic changes

    And, I know a few that still do not charge for testing...

    And I had a few in the past who did not charge for lessons


    People paying for ranking fees want to say it is part of the tuition to feel good about themselves.

    There is nothing wrong with ranking/testing fees, but back in the old days, it was not a financial concept
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2012
  9. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Did I answer your questions directly enough?
     
  10. DGarcia86

    DGarcia86 Valued Member

    Yes sir!
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I guess you didn't understand either.

    Doesn't matter whether rank fees are part of the "concept" or not, in most groups they have some sort of cost (or cut to an instructor or federation). It doesn't matter how "old school" or "pure" you think your training was, by paying your instructor and getting some sort of rank, the costs were either included in it or tacked on as an "extra" fee. "In the old days", some people made a lot of money off guys like you and me.

    That's like saying I buy my groceries at the local store so I don't have to pay transportation/shipping costs - you'd be right from a certain persepctive but wrong in that the transportation and shipping fees are added into the cost of the good.

    Furthermore, there's no shame or "wanting to feel good about oneself" in paying for test fees. If you study a martial art and enjoy it, you pay the fees. If you don't like the fees, find somewhere cheaper - keep in mind that "cheaper" doesn't always mean "better".... sometimes paying fees (including testing fees) can ensure better facilities, better instruction, more support from a federation, better schedules, and so on. Yes, some places abuse this and use it to soak up extra money... doesn't mean you should tar everyone with the same brush.
     
  12. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Yep.. when I go to the local store, I always pay a "separate transportation cost" :rolleyes:

    To add, I did not say there was a "shame about feeling good"

    And more expensive, doesn't mean better either

    There are two schools in my area, one with fees, one without...the one without is lower because they do not collect testing fees.

    BTW, their overhead is about the same.

    Yes, there is some abuse about fees and NO I am not tarring everyone with the same brush---

    To Reiterate;

    "Charging testing/rank fees is a concept to gain more financially and tuition alone can pay for overhead"

    "Testing fees had to become a financial concept to supplement what tuition alone could not do because of economic changes"

    "People paying for ranking fees want to say it is part of the tuition to feel good about themselves."

    "There is nothing wrong with ranking/testing fees, but back in the old days, it was not a financial concept"
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Re-read what I wrote. It's not a "separate" cost but the cost is included.



    I agree - that's the same thing I said



    Pure speculation - I don't think you can prove this at all. Each school is a completely different.

    However, in short, a school has to follow two basic models:
    1. Money coming in = cost of building, rent, bills
    2. Money coming in = cost of building, rent, bills, and profit

    The "money coming in" part can come from tuition, fees, rank costs, etc... it doesn't matter because the money coming in has to cover costs and/or provide for a profit... depending on what kind of school it is. If the tuition alone can pay for the costs and belt fees are added, it looks like model #2. If rank fees are averaged into the overall cost and tuition to break even, it's model # 1.


    Then, of course, you have to add in shades of gray for schools make profits, don't make profits, operate at a loss, run for free, etc.

    Neither models, of course, bear any relation to quality.


    Any data to back this up? I would bet that as soon as there were martial arts schools operating for money, there was an additional fee for certificates, rank, instructor's licenses, etc. I don't think testing fees were a financial concept created to make up for the lack of money tuition alone was bring in. Do you have any evidence to support this?

    No, I don't think so. I think it's irrelevant. Can you explain where you are going with this one more clearly, please?

    For someone like me, it really doesn't matter in the end. When I plan my budget for the year for martial arts, I add up the amount of tuition + new equipment/uniform costs + membership and fees + expected test fees and then I budget it out for the year. It's just the cost. When people join a school, they ask what the costs are... and a school like ours gives them the list of expected costs for the year, including all fees and such. We could just take the total amount of money we need to bring in per (estimated) student and charge that to everyone... then say "we don't charge for testing". It would be true, but the cost would be contained in what we charge.

    What do you mean by the "old days"? When did you get your first black belt, who from, and what did it cost?

    I got mine in Korea in 1998 - I started at the school and trained hard - every month I paid my tuition. Once in a while, the master would give us a new belt (and rotate our old ones to other people). Then when it came time to test, the master told us how much money to put in a white envelope to give him. Then we tested and got nice black belts and new certificates. There was no "big deal" about charging for testing or anything. You trained hard and paid what the master told you to pay, including for your dan test.

    How about you?


    Maybe a moderator would to split off this topic, it might be fun and useful... and less distracting to the OP's post.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2012
  14. DGarcia86

    DGarcia86 Valued Member

    UPDATE!

    ok so it's been almost a month since I signed up and I'll give you guys an update on my progress:

    I really enjoy the classes , I go 3 times a week for about an hour. It's probably the only thing I really look foward to during the week. Everyone in the class is very friendly and helpful, the students have come up to me and introduce themselves and have been very helpful in giving me tips on form and their own personal experience with the class. The are 3 instructors and all have been very helpful and encouraging specially in boosting my self confidence in performing different techniques that I thought I couldnt pull off. I'm considering in going 5 times a week next month and Master Jang has told me that in a year I could be able to take a Yongmudo class. Why a year? She wants me to familiarize with the basics.Overall my experience has been great, I got testing for my yellow belt in 2 or 3 weeks. Belt promotions vary from 2 to 3 months for lower rank belts to 3 to 5 months mid level and up.

    They have a sparring class on Saturdays which cost extra 80 bucks for 2 months plus the cost on sparring equipment. This class is mostly to prepare students in tournament form and familiarize them with the rules. Yongmudo classes are also extra cost I think it's 280 for six months for once a week class and that includes a different type of uniform which I have seen and felt, it's made with a lot thicker material and it's a bit heavier than the Dobak . So yes it can be a bit expensive if I really decide to get really involved.

    Overall I'm happy with my choice, I'm learning a lot, I do work up a sweat and I have fun .
     
  15. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Sounds like you are having a good time. The only thing I would be wary of would be all the add-on expenses.
     
  16. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Yes, I am with him here! I'm not sure I understand, you have to pay extra for Yongmudo? Is that what you meant to say?

    Master Jang got her training at Yong In University - the "Hapkidoi" they do there is called Yongmudo - so one would think you are learning that all the time.
     
  17. DGarcia86

    DGarcia86 Valued Member

    I actually asked her what is Yongmudo one time and she said Korean ground fighting. One of the guys there was actually in a tournament and did a yongmudo competition, basically I look similar to jiu jitsu. I feel that one of the reason for so much added expenses is that they lost a lot of students when they relocated to Oak Park since the old school was in on the northwest side of Chicago, so im assuming they are covering lost revenue.The reason I say that is cause in my class the most I seen is maybe 6 students and the earlier class which is a kids class I only seen about 3 or 5 kids. There is a later adult class which from my understanding is a crowded class with about 7 to 14 students. The place is not that big actually the most she can train in there is 16 students.I also notice they do weapon training with nunchaku and a bamboo swords which is part of the Yongmudo class, I think she said that the cost of the class also includes weapons.

    I also asked her what kind of Hapkido are we training for , meaning Choi"s style or Jin Han Jae style. She told me that she liked to use different styles or in other words blend them all together with some kuk sool .
     
  18. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    That's fair, I would do a little outside research about Yongmudo.
     
  19. DGarcia86

    DGarcia86 Valued Member

    Well I looked up some of it on YouTube , kinda like it actually specially the ground fighting part which could give me some knowledge if I were to deal with someone that has BBJ training.
     
  20. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    I'm sure you could get a free session to see if it's for you.
     

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