Mass Attacks

In an other thread, Reality Please made a comment that he believes his instructor could take on a mass assault of 6 and over attackers quite easily.

Now in this thread, I'm not having a go at RP. That's his opinion and that is fine.

But as for me, I'm under no illusion that taking on any more than 2 guys is a situation rife with danger. Unless they are attacking you in a line, one right after the other (like that Turkish boxer on the street clip), it's a hard take.

So I wanted to post 2 vids. The first one is an assault that happened here in OZ.
When I first saw this clip, I wondered why the boy moved into the teller machine Alcove and did not confront the first attacker or try to run...but then it becomes quite apparant as to what is in the boys field of vision and why his options were minimal.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3NJNQ67CWA&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3NJNQ67CWA&feature=related[/ame]

The second one I have shown before, and I am in no way pointing to the "after training with us" second half of the video, but the types of attacks they show at the start, which do show how how a defender gets caught up.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6RSheR9qwM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6RSheR9qwM[/ame]

So my question(s) to fellow ninpo practitioners is...

What drills do you do to train against mass attacks/multiple opponents?

Do you do any? Or do you just rely on kata perfection and trust in the training to get you by?

If you do train for multiple attackers, how do they attack? One at a time? (I see this a lot on BJK clips on youtube) and mostly with step in grabs, step in kick or step in grab...or a more realistic scenario?

Hoping we can keep it on-subject.
Cheers
Nick

 

Back during my PFS days I trained quite a bit with the Atienza bros when they used to do seminars up in Witchita Falls.
They had some great drills for multiple attackers.

 

Anyone deluded enough to think that any level of martial arts training can prepare you for a six-on-one confrontation is beyond help. I can only imagine the quality of the training they are undergoing that enables that kind of mentality.

There is only one way to win a 6-1 fight, unarmed - run and hope you can run faster than the guys chasing you. Failing that, protect your head.

 

I 100% agree with the last post.
Now that being said we do train with this, we have an assortment of hell mary moves designed to buy time etc etc. More of a well you have no choice now what do you do.
I'd like to think it would buy just enough to get the hell out of there. I feel the same way with weapons defense. Give the guy a wallet but if they are going to do it anyway, you have to take a chance.

In our Shodan rankings they are spontaneously attacked throughout the event. At one point I would nod up to pretty much the whole class going at once. The best one I have seen is a well done escape nothing more. Using common sense appeals to me more than flash that will get you killed.

 

Which are the kata that involve multiple attackers that people here are perfecting for this purpose?

I can think only of a few kata which involve multiple opponents, but all of the ones I can think of are quite archaic and I suspect that this thread is more for people who want to learn modern-day self-defense in mass-attack situations.

 

I wasn't referring to specific kata that involve scenarios. More so do you rely on just perfection of technique through form and believe that this will be enough to get you through it.

hope that clarifies

 

Unless you can find a very narrow stairway to stand at the top of you are deep in it.
It happened to me once and i threw myself between a bar and a bar stool which was fixed to the floor.I came away unscathed but if they had had knifes this would have been rather a stupid ploy.
Mass attacks cannot IMO be defended . It looks good in training but is inevitably one after the other rather than all at once.
Six at once?do me a favour RP pffft.

 

Yes we do fairly often practice knife defence and free attacks from multiple and suitably padded assailants.

Without exception, it's an exercise in getting roundly trounced but the object is to get less served than the last time rather than kick grass and take names.

 

Usually you hear people saying that there are two things that might save you in mass attack scenarios - make a run for it or take out the leader. However, one of my former instructors once suggested a third option - attack one of them randomly, and be sure to mess him up so badly that the others will deem you insane, and thus think twice about further aggression.
Said guy also has a track record of a whole lot of streetfighting in his youth, competing, and working doors. I didn't ask him if that strategy was a product of empirical results, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

 

It can be a good tension exercise or a class in judgment. More to see the best ways to escape a group like that rather than just say well I'm done.

George pointed to something that brings a point, situational exercise. IE small quarter attacks and such.
Maybe adding to the question itself, as I know we do this frequently.
Do you use situational self defense? Like hallway attacks, being pulled from a car, attacked from behind the seat of a car, etc etc etc etc.

It's useful, and fun to be honest.
Though your application result may not be perfect it's better to try and train then leave your pants down when the time comes.

I am lucky enough to have a warehouse to do this in when I feel like it, so I can pull a car or a truck in there and simulate jackings etc etc. We can actually build certain scenes in there, like a bar room or so on. Imagination can assist the training there for sure.

 

Well yes that does work however it means you have to take to initiative and go for someone first,before the mass attack.
A good thing is to make the one you destroy the one with the big mouth as often he is not the "main man" He is the guy giving the big mouth the confidence to give it large.

 

Attacks

Depends. In classes where I was being taught attacks ranged from 2 to 4 people. Random, with weapons, or you start with your eyes closed and when you open who knows. The goal was not to learn a waza but to apply approaches such as evasions, strikes, kicks and grapples. Sometimes it was to use break aways to grapples to pull opponents into one another. We did a lot of evasion and escape work in class.

When I have a big enough class I work on similar material. However, it takes a lot of time and practice and experience. Less experienced students tend to devolve pretty quickly.

I grew up in NY on Long Island and at an early age was left on my own to get from point a to b. Went to private school in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. My folks would take me to the train and I was off. Had to go through train and bus stations. About 12 at the time. Pretty scary.

One thing I learned is the best approach is to be alert and aware at all times. Keep your eyes open, scan constantly, never let anyone get too close. If you don't use those skills all the time what you learn in the dojo is pretty much a waste. Cities are fun but dangerous. One friend taught me that for a kid going wacko or acting sick is a pretty good tactic.

When I am in a large city I go back to scan and alert mode. I always have change in my hand or keys. Or if I feel real uncomfortable I will cup a folder in my hand so it can be opened in a concealed fashion. Saved me once as two guys were set to hit on my ex and I in a dark parking lot. They were lurking as we went to the car and started to shift into action. I shifted her and opened the folder and let the light gleam off it for a sec. We went from victims to a problem and they huddled and shuffled off. Predators are seeking victims and easy prey.

Six guys. Good luck on that unless you see it coming and set yourself up. Again awareness and good habits are key.

 

Once you start dealing with more than one individual your odds start to go down. Add in more people and well they keep going down measurably. However, one should never give up hope or determination because people have dealt with more than one attacker and been successful. The key in most of these encounters is the ability to flip the switch or simply let go and take care of business. (time to get down and dirty) That and a little luck and who knows you may carry through the day particulalry if you are able to deploy a tool to your advantage. (ie. blunt, edged or projectile based tool) So I always take the opinion that well the **** is hitting the fan but it is time to rock until I can get out of there. I will say this though as the mass of limbs come your way you do not want to be dragged down that is a nightmare! Stay upright and take care of business and get away and survive!

There simply are no absolutes![/B]

 

I would say that if you move in circles/ live in an area/expect to be in the situation where you are attacked by a group of people, carry a weapon. Preferably a firearm. (And of course know how to use it). This is of course talking about life and death situation. The average person will probably not end up in situations like these.

Regards,

Tom.

 

Hey Nick,

Group attacks/defence scenarios, yeah we train the concept. It's a build on previous topics, really, namely verbal defusion and pre-emptive striking.

Essentially, we take the tact that one on one, sure. One on two, with some luck and the correct tactics. One versus three, take it as one on two (pre-emptive) and get distance against the third. Taking on three or more at once, uh, I wish you the best!

Our group defences are based primarily on pre-emptive striking (if you wait for them to all attack, it's most likely too late.... after all, they aren't likely to wait their turn like the movies), and based on an understanding of who is the most dangerous.

Realistically, the most basic tennet is to create the opportunity to escape. So our modern approach is actually based (strategically) on the group defences that appear in the scrolls, particularly Togakure Ryu. There, the common theme is simple: When outnumbered and out-gunned, don't fight! Create the opportunity and escape. And we then just follow that in a modern sense as well.

 

The biggest thing is situational awareness, not standing where you could be trapped, knowing your exits, clocking the people most likely to cause trouble & the people they are with.

No matter how skilled you are fighting two people is almost impossible at the same time, each additional person significantly reduces your odds.

Theoretically I suppose you could back yourself into a corridor and take them one at a time, or even run until they are spread out and take them out.

My training in this area is definitely more around the "whats happening - where to go" if it all goes Pete Tong.

And being able to run 5k in under 20 minutes means I can outrun most people.

 

That's because they don't want to hurt anyone.

Go to one of their seminars and you'll know what I mean.

 

Unless they are in a car or several. In which case it's time for a Taxi.

 

Focus on Kihon Happo and Ashida Kims levitation technique and you will be fine..

I dunno. There must be something teachable to put into that mass attack since they happen a fair bit and most victims seem to get out ok. I saw a lot of these as a kid when te local derby was on, most of the mob doesn't do much and I've seen a single guy or small group fight one of those off by standing their ground and going on the offensive.

If you take the alcove option cover your nuts and head and be ready for a few boots... Not sure what I would do but probably I'd not have the nads to stand there in Queenbury rules stance against all that...