Martially aware

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Tommy-2guns..., Sep 2, 2009.

  1. Tommy-2guns...

    Tommy-2guns... southpaw glassjaw

    Question : how much do you and/or your art assume any opponent to be martially aware and to what to degree?

    Does you art assume your opponent will be using habitual acts of violence? (common techniques of the untrained, looping strikes, headlocks and so on)

    Does it assume your opponent to be a bit sharper than that, a bit upwards from the sluggish movemnts and incloude sucker punching, common approaches, mental distractions etc.)

    Does it assume a basic working knowlege of how to hit on balance, and make a general effort of power placement(such as the ability to throw a working cross or effective headbutt?

    Does your art assume (by default of training) that the assailant will attack you in the same way you are trained to attack ie ( with moves specific to a style, such as karate style punch A vs karate style block B)?

    Perhaps you are trained for a mixture, attacks your art practices and attacks from outside it, be it untrained or trained?

    is this issue ever raised with you in class? i know when im boxing im boxing, when im doing thai i do thai, when ive seen karate its been against karate, and so on. Ive only seen training aginst a mix of different approaches in RSBD systems and some of the fillipino systems. in a sport in makes sense not to bother with this too much, but with the 'traditional' arts, do you think a point should be made of doing this, or if it is already being done, do you think its done enough.
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    an art does not deal with situations, it only provides techniques.

    how YOU train those techniques is a much more personal matter
  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    See ICHI GAN in koyo's book thread.

    In a nutshell..It is dangerous to assume anything other than he is an all round excellent fighter,may be armed and has friends.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  4. Tommy-2guns...

    Tommy-2guns... southpaw glassjaw

    i tend to assume that if someone is attacking me he has reason to beleive he is good or at least better than me at fighting or has a significant advantage thereof.

    I assume that the majority of normal minded people wont attack me unless they perceive their odds to win to be largely over and above mine, it would general be a stupid thing to do if they didnt beleive that.

    so i like to assume as Koyo states that my opponent is much stronger than me, much better trained and more determined to win (especially if he is the aggressor). Therefore i tend to train for a middle ground, i would perefer my opponent to throw a good approximation of a technique but still retaining that true to life essence of techniques that go just that little bit wild due to the effects of booze, adrenaline and so forth.

    i feel fighting against an enthusiastic but dertermined amateur is where im at in my training focus, ive always felt like im fighting a style rather than a person doing the same against someone sticking the realm of gym realm perfect strikes.

    thanks for the link to the ichi gan koyo, very interesting!
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Unless the attack is very premeditated, even a trained martial artist is likely to attack with haov: the only difference being that their technique is likely to have greater power, accuracy and penetration.
  6. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    jwt, what do you mean "attack with haov"?
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Attack with a habitual act of violence.
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    This from Mrs Koyo.

    Assume he has a death wish and oblidge him.

    And I have to live with her:eek:
  9. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Mine assumes that the opponent is really good as a default, but there are techniques to deal with people who rely on brute strength or who make mistakes. Sometimes the techniques are for a SD situation, sometimes for a duel, sometimes for the battlefield. It depends on context, but the root system is the same for all situations.

    Best regards,

  10. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    I like Mrs Koyo's attitude! :)
  11. Ironized

    Ironized Valued Member

    my club we do sd against two kinds of theoretical attacks

    educated in TKD or similar striking art
    non educated at all

    that being said, most if not all martial arts discourage attacking an individual with out reason, a fight between two martial artists shouldnt happen
  12. DragonPrawn

    DragonPrawn Valued Member

    My master has the same attitude.

    Thanks for making my day.
  13. Jeffkins

    Jeffkins Sleuth Diplomacy

    I think it is also important to identify that untrained people can also have certain attributes that make them incredibly different to train to fight also. Things such as their state of mind and what drugs they're on.

    At my club we try to train in ways that impart principles that work against most attackers, but we tend to focus on strong, big, untrained attackers more.

    Yes, but most, if not all societies discourage attacking an individual without reason; a fight between two people shouldn't happen; but the world doesn't work like that.
  14. DCombatives

    DCombatives Valued Member

    I think it's probably more important to consider who your most likely opponents will be than to simply try to categorize their potential skill level. For example: since I'm in the military, my training is geared for the battlefield. I have to assume they will be armed, as well as account for the fact that I will be armed. My opponents are most likely young males in good physical condition. They may be on performance enhancing drugs as the insurgents in fallujah frequently were. These factors drive the manner in which I train.

    For someone else who is primarily concerned with self-defense in a civilized western country, your threat analysis will be different. Not always, but as a general rule, you can assume your opponent will be bigger and probably stronger than you are. Men are not typically attacked by 5'2", 108lbs females. Your job can affect your threat assessment as well. Policemen have rule-sets they have to operate under, Bar Bouncers have other rules. Things like your neighborhood, local crime threats, gang presence, etc will all come into play as you evaluate your specific threat.

    What I'm getting at is that your focus should not be governed by what your particular school assumes will be the skill set of your opponent, but rather should be determined by your personal assessment of the most likely opponents you will face.
  15. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    If you're a really serious martial artist, and you're really serious about getting good experience, here's a top tip... as well as doing lots of training and sparring with trained people of as many levels and styles as you can, get your mates who don't train to put on some gloves and go at you. You tell them they can hit you, but you won't punch or hurt them - you just want to feel the chaos of it.

    There's something very surprising about the unorthodoxy of people who can't fight - the angles things come in at, and so on. The chances of really odd things working go up when people do mostly odd things and you're not hitting them back - which mimics the surprise of a surprise attack - I guarantee, you'll get clipped by something ridiculous at some point. And it's lots of fun. What's wrong with a lot of self defence is that it doesn't start from a smack in the face, whereas, that's probably the point where you'll realise 'this is real'.
  16. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Actually, there are thousands of incidents of men being attacked by women, or relatives, or friends. It's an area of self defence not always considered by the fingers in their eyes brigade - what do you do if your brother in law has had too much to drink and starts getting aggressive? Or your wife goes nuts and starts belting you with pan? Lol.

    Seriously though, women can do some nasty damage, especiallyif they glass you or use some kind of weapon - or, the classic, stick the boot in when you've already been leathered down.

    I have to say, a young angel saved my life in that situation, though, once upon a time...
  17. DCombatives

    DCombatives Valued Member

    Don't get me wrong: I know full well what women can do and have a lot of respect for them as fighters. That said, statistically, most people will NOT be attacked by someone smaller and weaker than they are. Woman who are concerned with self-defense should not spend the majority of their time practicing with other women; their opponents will most likely be larger males. Obviously, there is an exception to every rule, but in general smaller people do not try to fight bigger, stronger people without a weapon.

    Of course, if you're a female MMA fighter, then yes, you should spend most of your time training against women who are about your same size...etc, etc, etc.

    Again, it all comes down to your threat assessment. Who are YOU most likely to have as an opponent? Your threat assessment may be that you're likely to have to restrain an intoxicated family member. Should you ignore every other possibility? Of course not. But since training time is limited, it's best to focus on your most likely threat. It's possible I may have to grapple with an eight armed alien who lands in the front yard, but should I really spend a lot of my valuable training time preparing for that?
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2009
  18. Dhalsim-on

    Dhalsim-on Banned Banned

    I had a girl throw a deodorant can at me on a bus when I was about 15... I still have a little scar from it today! I wouldnt mind but I didn't even smell!

    The fact is anyone can do damage if they have a mind to. The real world is nothing like a UFC octagon.

    I used to have various settings in confrontations depending on the perceived threat but a few times I have majorly messed up on my "perceiving" so now I'd advocate just neutralise as quickly and efficiently as possible. The way I see it, I don't start trouble and nor do I invite it, people that give me grief deserve everything they get anyway. Luckily having finished with my younger years (i'm 23) I don't really get into trouble anymore....
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Woman who are concerned with self-defense should not spend the majority of their time practicing with other women; their opponents will most likely be larger males.

    Is that still statistically the case?
    I imagine in todays society women are increasingly likely to be attacked by some drunken chavy tart than the proverbial male attacker from a dark alley.
    Although both of those are probably nothing compared to the amount of women attacked by some bloke they thought they knew.
  20. TheWaywardSon

    TheWaywardSon Habitual Line Stepper

    Actually most violent crimes are committed between acquaintances. The one odd man out being armed robbery, but as for the rest murder, rape, assault, etc the statistics swing heavily towards to parties knowing one another.

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