Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by funkymonk, Mar 5, 2005.
Of course it is. Life is based on probability. Learn that.
Am I? Are instructors not teaching how to hurt/maim/kill people?
I used fictional characters to backup my arguements?? I said some sport martial artists remind me of the black team. Like in the Mighty Ducks, or the Cobra Kai, or the other sterotypical "bad guy team". Of course its not all like that, it was a reference to get a point across about CERTAIN martial artists, sport or not.
There are students in my class that are twice your age and they are still learning new moral behaviors and situational ethics.
Yeah, too bad I havent said anything about sports, nice reading comprehension.
lol awesome, you guys made a guy who has a good view on the subject think i hate sport martial arts. Because I said that. And because I've never done any. And because I think people who do them aren't cool.
Sigh, more personal attacks. i'm a snob now? I never said anyone was wrong, only thing ive ever stated is my own opinion on matters. I like how this thread was changed to some poor guy dying to a sports martial arts thread.
Well now that thats cleared up... I never meant that the instructor is to blame, or that he should be arrested, or sued or anything of this nature. The instructor should be ashamed, his student used something that he taught to kill another person.
I used to represent some of these remarks.
However I have taken the past 4 years to clean my self up and do something
with myself. Believe it or not I was introduced to BJJ in those settings. Since
then I found god and started using hapkido as a focus for my spirituallity.
Needless to say the past month and a half has been the best time I ever had.
respectfully , whitey
awesome man, good luck with your training, welcome to MAP.
People have to understand that when something like that happens the press only have to find out someome owns a martial arts book to be labled a 'fanatic'.The fact is people have to really look into the story, i mean was the guy still training? maybe he trained as a teenager but stopped and went off the rails? Who knows, maybe he did not even have a proper teacher but was constantly picking up a few bits here and there and was sparring and training with a few like minded mates who also 'loved a good fight '.
As a MA teacher you really need instill the right virtues in your students, people can disagree but you can usally see the wrong sort pretty quickly. A level of disernment needs to be there, also if you have a good core of students they will usally help you sniff them out. Thats also why students need to be tested over time.
You will also find that peoples motives to training will change as they mature in the system, at the begining maybe it is for the fighting skills but after a while as most students will tell you it becomes more about self development, which can only be a good thing.
Of course they will, the media is like that. If a kid commits murder and they also happen to be a Marilyn Manson fan the media are all over it like a rash. People make illusory correlations about these things, it's like saying "a black man hit me once, therefore black men are violent". It's much easier for people to think like that because it doesn't require any mental effort on their part.
Teachers are not impeccable judges of character and as long as someone behaves themselves in the lesson there's no reason to assume that they're bad people. Instilling the right virtues in students isn't going to change much, because 1) the kind of people who will listen are the reasonable people who know better already and are just going to feel insulted and 2) the people who still need to be taught how to behave despite being adults are not suddenly going to listen.
This guy had a history of violence and i was wondering whether his instructor knew this. If so then i think it is wrong to teach somebody with violent tendancies how to cause more damage than they already can. If the instructor didn't know about his past then he can't be blamed for what happened. That's my view anyway.
It depends on the teacher, a good teacher should get to know thier students, and test them a little. It is very hard to hide your true character under preasure. All new students should be watched closely, any teacher that does not is either naive or does not care, teachers have responsibility to other students. Also I think it is a good idea to have social events, that way you can see how your students are in this enviroment.
As i said your senior students should also be helping you on this one, it is very hard to hide your true character for long. The truth always has a knack of coming to the surface.
As for the insulting good students, this is unlikely to happen unless you are talking rubbish to them or they are very prideful. They should respect you enough as thier teacher to listen to you if they dont the teacher all ready has problems to deal with, I am not talking about preaching to them but planting the right seeds, it might not be what you need to hear but what about the other guys. Also some of people need a bit of guidance and look to thier teachers for it, if it does not apply to you dont worry about it, just concentrate on your training.
If the "other guys" need to hear about why you should only use MAs in self defence by the time they're adults then an instructor isn't going to get through to them all of a sudden.
It is not as clear cut as that, some of the young adults can go eitherway and need a positive influence on thier lives, people do change, martial arts are renound for turning people around, they get young adults off the street and away from the the wrong influences and some older ones that are a bit lost.
Not everyone has had the perfect life where they dont need a bit of guidance and mentoring. I am not saying you start lecturing people on what is right and wrong, and constantly nag them about useing MAs for self defence.
You can have a perfect teacher, yet a student who doesn't believe killing is wrong.
bull. I managed to hide who I was for over a year from my own family. you seriously think it would be difficult to hide who you are from someone who you might only see for a few hours each week?
Familys are always the last to find things out. I am not saying it is 100% every time, but a good teacher should have a level of disernment, familys are not on the lookout, where as a well trained instructor is, as they should be trained in this area.
You go and take someone that carries bad intention to one of the old Thai masters and i guarantee that he will see through the mask in no time at all.
Agreed. I still believe my family have no idea who I really am inside. And thats 23years later
My wife knows me the best, but even she doesnt know me really.
First off, this could just be media sensationalist hype, (especially seeing as its the mirror which in England is a tabloid paper for all the others.)
He might have gone to one or two kickboxing lessons and have done this, the paper would still brand him as a martial arts fanatic, (note word fanatic, kind of words they also use with anything to do with terrorism.)
However. As a martial arts instructor you should definitely be exacting in the morality of using MA's. ie an emphasis of not hitting someone first unless required. It doesn't matter whether you're 15 or 50. (If not to cover your own ass if someone comes knocking on your door asking about the student) This doesn't mean that you become a moral judge of every situation, but you are precise in the details of teaching techniques.
And you are careful of who you teach - I don't think I've come across a student who I wouldn't teach, and I don't think there are any instances of students being kicked out of our association, but I am always aware of students who might potentially be more of a thug than the next person. But this is a judgement call, and is why its hard to be discerning amongst those who you think might be a thug, and those who are thugs.
As for hiding the way you 'really' are - Im not a believer in that. You can tell how a person is when they accidentally get hit harder than they are supposed to, or are being dominated. Normally a physically stressful situation will always bring out the 'worse' in people since its based on the amount of ego you have, and unless you are really sneaky, I don't think most blokes I know can hide that after a couple of minutes of being pasted.
Put Your Minds To Rest
Thugs and bullies will always exist, just as good hearted people and heros will (though there is less and less due to our modernized ultra-tolerance world) The idea is this, this guy should be punished way worse then this as to provide an example to stop others from doing this same thing. Think about it for a second, if you steal and they punish you be giving you a cookie, you`ll feel more compelled to steal then if they catch you, you go to jail.
But also if some Kick Boxer is ganna beat up an old person, whats to keep him from doing somethig simulare without training? He could hit the guy with a hammer without martial art training. SO the said reality is that there are guys out there like this, but if we do all the good we can, do all we can. We will come closer to making the world better then sitting in a room and crying about it.
Another thing, you`ll typically find that an Internal style through spiritual training eventually becomes an art of self defense. And an External Style will typically start out as an art of just plain strait up protecting yourself, but THROUGH that walk of life install Morality in the students. When you fall down, and you make yourself stand up, you start to develope inner strength. Don`t criticize one arts method of training, because saying that an "Internal art is the only right path" is UNBALANCED. And criticizing "Aggressive Arts" is being "Aggressive" so I don`t see where the ethics is in that.
Too much Peace is unbalanced, sometimes we must fight. Saying that Peace is the only way is extremesm, and Tyranny is just the other extreme. Make no mistake, this guy is a complete Fiend for what he did, but I doubt martial arts did that to him, im sure in kicking boxing they didn`t put old men`s faces on the punching bags, or have "old man ass kicking drills" this guy was probably always like this, and he probably would have done the same thing with or without the extra tools.
So punish the wicked, do whats right, and nature will take its course.
Good point, if Tim was to get into a fight and a bar and kill someone that is his descision and a lot would depend on how he killed someone as from the one class he has done with me I have not shown him enought really to kill someone as throwing a punch that would knock someone to the floor (in this instance and die from hitting the curb) this can be done by anyone as every person can throw a punch of sorts even with no training.
It would have been more of an issue if the person did an abvious martial arts manover like an axe kick to the back of the head or a choke that he did not let go. By the sounds of it the punch he did was just a punch and nothing more.
The people who train with me for the first few months really are on basics of striking and grappling and they are not anything crazy. Possible they could kill but by the time they are at the level enought to apply a move and hold it long enough to choke someone to death then I would have a better idea of them. If someone comes to train with me and I don't think there of sound mind and disposition I will tell them to leave but I am teaching effective martial arts so they can do damage to people and I am only teaching martial arts - not a life coach or social worker so personal problems I can only offer unquallified advise.
Wow. Where to start...
First off, I know this thread isn't about Siphus. But I gotta say to Siphus that the tact of your posting has gotten a lot better. Makes it much easier to discuss things, even if we don't ultimately agree. So thanks for that.
As for morality in martial arts, I've been going around in circles about this for a while now. I have two competing beliefs. On the one hand, I believe that martial arts teachers, even "masters", are just people. And people can be petty, trite, spiteful, and violent. That's just the way it is. I think it's dangerous to act as if all teachers are enlightened souls, somehow above this sort of thing. We're not. We're just as deeply flawed as anyone else.
On the other hand, people a martial arts teacher puts us in a unique position in some ways. Teachers can exert a lot of influence on a person's life. Even an older person. (Aspiring to be something more than we are isn't something you grow out of; and a good teacher can provide inspiration for that as readily to an older student as to a younger student.) I think most of us are probably familiar with a case in which a teacher had a profound affect on a student.
I say that the martial arts teacher might be unique because much of what makes that influence possible occurs on the student's side. The student is inspired to change because they're inspired by the teacher. Generally speaking, I think martial arts teachers carry a sense of coolness that a chemistry teacher often doesn't. (Just an example gang.) I know that when I was in grade school, I was much more enamoured with my taekwondo teacher than with anyone at school. (That changed when I got to college, mind you.) Besides, you're required to see your teachers at school. You choose to see a martial arts teacher (unless you're forced by your parents, in which case all bets are off). That makes a difference too.
I think the martial arts teacher has a sort of "automatic in" with students. So the questions are 1) is the teacher qualified to dole out moral advice and 2) is the teacher willing to do it? This is where it gets tricky.
What's the qualification to teach morality? I don't believe it rests in any recognized authority. We've got politicians (who campaign on moral grounds) who get caught banging the intern. We've got priests who get caught molesting parishioners. We've got parents who neglect their children, police who beat suspects needlessly, etc. We can't count on the structures nominally associated with morality. To my mind, all we can do is trust in the ability of certain individuals.
So then there's the willingness to do it. From a personal standpoint, I'm not willing to stand up and lecture on "right action." I'm human. I screw up. A lot. And I would feel like a hypocrit telling anyone else how to live. What I can, in good conscience, do is model my attempt to live well myself. I can cop to my failures, keep my successes in perspective, and show a student an honest look at my experience. I can share my views, hopes, and fears without being preachy. And, frankly, in a time where too few parents are willing even to step up and take responsibility for their own children, I think anyone who's earnestly willing to step up and help should be valued.
As for martial artists teaching people how to kill, injure, and maim, I think teachers should be honest and realistic about the potential of what they're doing. It doesn't need to be a scene out of The 10 Commandments. "Thou shalt not knife hand to the throat." Just be honest. "Be careful with this round kick to the knee. It doesn't take that much to blow out the knee if you land it right. And that could have lifelong consequences for the other guy." Part of being a teacher is accepting that ultimately it's up to the student to decide when such a thing is justified.
As for this particular case, as has been said, it was a young guy preying on an old penshioner. This wasn't about martial arts. Martial arts didn't make it possible. He could've taken the OAP out using anything from a rubbish bin lid to a simple rugby tackle. Wouldn't have made any difference. Martial arts were just an intriguing hook for the story publishers IMO.
I second that
lol, see I told you guys browsing on MAP is training. Attitude training
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