Martial Arts styles that are better for women for Self Defense? {Split from Stories}

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by Jesh, Oct 22, 2005.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member


    If someone pulled out a razor/knife in a public place and challenged a Gracie, would they fight? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Does this have any relevance to the effectiveness of GJJ or their "manhood"... Again NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    How do I know? It probably has happened already, at least some would say it has been done, that is someone pulling a knife in a training facility on a Gracie... if they had accepted that challenge, you know you would have heard about it.

  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Okay, so why is BJJ NOT good for women's self-defense training? Got me. In fact BJJ is exactly what many women probably need :eek:

    BJJ on the bad side is limited, very limited when it comes down to NHB fighting and weapons. However, unless one sticks their head in the sand and never does anything but BJJ for self-defense, I think there are good ways to add to BJJ to become more rounded, prepared, and less limited.

    Indeed, the limitations of BJJ are also its strength. BJJ is very specialized and by being specialized it can really work the details of techniques to work against resisting opponents. This is EXACTLY what most women need for self-defense fighting technique.

    Taking the situation that the women that really need self-defense the most are going to be on average smaller and not as strong as those that attack them, they cannot get by with watered down or generic techniques. Instead they need detailed technique designed to compensate for and subjugate a bigger and stronger enemy.

    I know I am not alone in this thinking. A very good instructor of over forty years experience in striking arts as well as over thirty years in Tai Chi, told me this many years ago.

    The details in technique are what allow it to work against someone resisting that is bigger and stronger than you are. To learn these details, you have to be able to use them against a resisting opponent in training, the bigger they are compared to you, the better. Many people can never learn these details because they are never taught to them, however, BJJ is one of the few places where these details are taught in the techniques against resisting opponents.

    I will say it again, BJJ is a great choice for a women or smaller person to learn self-defense fighting skills, just so long as it isn't the only thing that is learned. Specialized, effective, but also limited.
    Last edited: May 27, 2006
  3. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

  4. NewLearner

    NewLearner Valued Member

    I don't know. I won a wrestling tournament with a dislocated shoulder. And I wasn't high on drugs like some attackers are. In another thread there was a list of three different fighters that won with pretty significant injuries and they kept going. Is it not likely that a person high on drugs and not feeling pain or is irrational due to anger might continue?
  5. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    So what was the response they were advocating?

    So you didn't work any escalation/de-escalation stuff? Did you do any SPEAR work? What about pain managment? Pre-contact cue work?

    As far as the drilling, was it pad work?

    - Matt
  6. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Actually grappling only tends to dominate amoung the lower level practioners. If you watch the upper talents such as Top Dog (Eric Knaus), they very rarely go to the ground (unless they choose to). They're footwork and striking is such that they can, and actively do, avoid the take down. Now note, that like any martial arts, Gatherings have been in a state of evolution. The heaviest grappling approach in them was in '98/'99 (just as it was in most arts). And, as with every other case, the good folks modified their approach to intergrate a stick grappling game (which is different than BJJ) and also a grappling neutralization game. Heck even Denny (who I'm pretty sure has a Black Belt under the Machados) doesn't go to the ground every time. It's typically the bash-and-crashers who wade through the stick strikes and try to go to the takedown. (Oh and note - I say this as someone who has both competed in full contact and worked with Dog Brothers and people who've trained DB's).

    Further, it's important to note that the ability to evenb grapple is in part based on a safety concession - the helmet. If you watch the bash-and-crashers they often wade through a number of headshots in accomplishing the shoot. Ditto the hand shots.

    Further as to Lucy's story, I tend to believe her. In part it's because of the quality of their school. Also there is the fish out of water thing. Drop a BJJer into a new surrounding, place them behind a mask, and give them a stick and it's going to take some time for them to get ready. And even at three months of training, an aggressive person with a weapon is tough to get in on. I speak from experience on this. As long as that person can start a condfident "cave man sinawalli" and has basic footwork, it's going to be intimidating for any first timer to shoot. And note that FMA tends to have a more mobile base from the beginning than most other arts.

    Now if Lucy has said that the BJJ failed to tap out the white belt, I'd consider that to be dubious. But that it took a fish-out-of water time to adjust and enter. That makes perfect sense (and I've seen things like it a number of times).

    - Matt
    Last edited: May 27, 2006
  7. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    How is it weak reasoning? I was explaining why some women do not want to take up martial arts and why they simply go to a self defence course......I am sorry, but I thought this was part of the conversation.

    When somebody says all that women need to suvive an attack on the street is BJJ or other grappling is most certainly relevant.

    Again we are talking about women learning self defence, not taking up a lifetime hobby of martial arts, but at the same time I do not think a grappling art on it's own is going to give you the relevant skills for street self defence and if you believe this, it could get you killed, even if by accident in the struggle of grappling with your assailant.

    Before you commit your-self to throwing someone that has you in a hold or a choke, you need to be sure they have not got a knife in their hand (which invariably you will not sense or feel initially). Imagine feeling someone grab you and instantly throwing them because that is what you have been taught in class, to only find the knife had ripped all the way round your throat during the maneouvre. Ouch. :woo:

    I have had a broken jaw, broken fingers, broken toes and cracked ribs, just during a grading (on two different occassion, not all at once).....and still kept going until the end.

    I also know of and have trained with people who have had broken bones and dislocations of various joints and parts during confrontations in the ring and on the doors and even on the street and have kept going.

    It is amazing how much pain adrennaline (SP) can numb. O.k they were in agony later but the point is they did not stop for it until it was over.

    What exactly are you saying to me....I don't train functionally? What makes you think I just sit at home all day. My titles and grades must have been sent to me in the post eh.

    I am basing my answers on my experience and functional training with some of the leading figures in Britain and the World. If you are doing any kind of functional training, you would know that the first consideration in any street encounter is....are there any weapons in play, or is there a likely hood for them to come into play? Most violent attacks against women, such as rape, do involve weapons and or multiple attackers.

    So why do you keep dismissing the possibility? If you are dismissing the possibility of a weapon then you are on another planet and in for shock if you ever get attacked with someone holding a knife. We are now in a knife culture, open your eyes and watch the news.

    That's what I said, you have to consider the risks of CONTINUING a grapple with him. Like I said earlier, he is holding you and you cannot see if he is holding a knife against you either.

    I am afraid there is always choices. I seriously hope you are not teaching self defence.

    So, because it does not fit in your world and what you believe to be the truth, it must mean it is not true. Ha ha :rolleyes: .

    It was a Black Eagle Society meeting, not a competition or proof of who is the best. It is purely a test of skills in a friendly non egotistical environment. So I do not feel it is fair to name, names. I have it on video, I know it happened, I was there, and so was he and all of us went away happy. But as you know so many Gracies and I did not realise they were the only high ranking BJJ guys, but I am sure they know of the maybe you should just go and ask them and if they do not know, I am sure they can ask around and find out for you, because like I said...the event did occur and not just in my head either.

    I have no reason to lie....I have never used it for any publicity as this was not the reason for the event. We were all there to learn and if you need a rough was September 1999.

    Why do you think I am lying about this too. Would I really put myself in that position.

    If you ask your so many contacts they also should be able to varify this.

    Talk to people like Lee Hasdall, Andy Jardine and Peter McQueen.

    Myself and my husband used to train and supply fighters for all 3 gentlemen and were frequently seen at the tournaments such as rings network events and millenium brawl. Have a look at the millenium brawl 2 video footage where Ian Freeman fought for his qualifier to the UFC against a former UFC Champion. A couple of fights before that....I am the pregnant one cornering Louis Beale. You will also see me cornering in the Night of the Samurai II,The Ring of truth footage. I was a few months pregnant there too.

    After a couple of years of pestering Lee and Andy for a fight, which they were unable to get me during 1997 to 2000 I had a baby and got ill for a while but was still on the scene cornering, coaching and training but had given up asking for fights at this point.

    It was now that we had Peter McQueen (Ian Freemans coach at the time)
    was bringing fighters to our shows (yorkshire submission fighting championships) and we were taking fighters to his shows (full contact mixed martial arts english fighting championships). And it was then that an MMA event was being held in Newcastle by the B.I.S.K.A in November 2001 which Peter McQueen's guys were fighting for British MMA titles and we also had a guy fighting too. Now the promoter had a British title fight in the Womens division and 2 days before the event the challenger pulled out and I got a phone call and they asked if I would step in as they could not find anybody else from any other promoters already mentioned, but they all put my name forward knowing I had a good background in MMA. Although it was still called Vale Tudo at the time (this was before the government cracked down). So I took up the challenge and won the fight in under a minute in typical MMA fashion.

    It was soon after this that Lee Hasdall asked me to be on his Vale Tudo team as their only woman, when they were auditioning for a TV show. Why don't you ask about that while you are checking my background.

    I have not even began my Thai boxing background, my FMA background and my background working on the doors of clubs and pubs, so lets just assume I have a little experience when I answer questions on womens self defence and just maybe I know what I am talking about as a woman (although it might be hard for you to believe)....yes this species too can talk about their experiences with regards to WOMENS self defence and women in martial arts.

    Anything else you think I am lying all means just ask. I have nothing to hide.

    Lots of love :love:

    Last edited: May 27, 2006
  8. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    When my husband was sent this picture, He was sent it as they knew he was writing a book on edged weapons....and it was sent as a police training set of photographs by a legitimate source who told him it was in fact a police officer.

    And if you look at the end of your link that you supplied it also says they think it originated from a police training programme.

    If somehow you think I am misleading and that this is not the type of damage done by a knife on the street, then I am sorry.

    But if you get the chance to see the Police training video, 'Surviving Edged Weapons' this will deffinately open your eyes and show you in far more graphic detail.

    Look you are not just going to get do realise this don't you?

    Knives kill and you need to be aware of them, what other point do I need to make. Now whether it be a Policeman, an Airman or a prison inmate. This is still what happens when you grapple a knife. The knife does not take your position in society into account, or your unbeatable martial arts skills, regardless of style.

    A knife shows no prejudice against anyone....remember that.

    So please do not discount it in self defence training.

    Lots of love :love:

  9. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    A great video that is sadly out of circulation right now (or at least the last time I checked).

    - Matt
  10. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    Well I am glad I have got a copy...because I am probably one of the only ones that will even respect a spoon then.

    If a women starts coming towards you with a spoon and looks even slightly unhappy....take my advice....

    RRRRRRRUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. :D :D

    Lots of love :love:

  11. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Sankaku you're in the uk according to your profile , i'm not sure about the multiple attacker scenario , although we seem to see more stories involving more than one aggressor every day , but to say that not many street attacks involve weapons , especialy knives , is wrong.
    Britain at the moment seems to have quite a big problem with kids carrying knives , i know one teenager that has actualy shown me the knife he carries , also over the last few lessons i've taught i've asked the teenagers present if they know somone who carries a knife and every one of them said yes , so i think knives cannot be discounted anymore.
    Last edited: May 27, 2006
  12. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I think you are misreading what Lucy posted, she was in no way trying to bellitle BJJ, as she said earlier she love training in MMA and trust me she is at a very good standard, but she also realises like everything it has it's limitations and to rely on this soley for street defence is quite frankly Stupid.

    Now to go on to your disbeleif of the event she was talking about, I too was there, being the head of the Black Eagel Soceity I suppose it was expected for me to be there.

    What is the Black Eagle Society? well much akin to the dog brothers you mention. And even the Dog Brothers will tell you, that if you are any good with your weapon it will not go to the floor unless you really want it to. That is fact.

    Now lets go on to the BJJ guy, he actually turned up out of the blue to this event and because he had no expeariance with a weapon I felt it only right to place him against a begginer first regardless of his expeariance in BJJ, because brining weapons in to the equasion will make a big difference to any encounter, just ask the Army. We were not there to make him look stupid, as a matter of fact it was the opposite, We were there to let him learn from the expeariance of playing in a pressure testing enviroment that he was not used to and to give any advise based on his expeariance on how we could improve our game and approach too. Now had he had expeariance with weapons then he would have played with the more senior members of the Society. No doubt if I would have decided to roll on the mat's with him BJJ style then he would have quite easily rip me a new ...... Well you know what I am saying.

    Now what would be better way for me to promote my club way back in 1999 than to plaster this guys face all over the magizines telling everyone just how his BJJ does not work against weapons. Now why did I not think of doing that? Because I have seen others doing this and it quite frankly it disgusts me, We can all make fools of people who have no expeariance in other specialised areas of the arts can't we. The other reason no names were mentioned is because this was first and formost a session were people from different styles pitted their wits up against each other in a painful game of chess, not in order to beat the hell out of each other, not to build their egos or promotion of their style, club or group, but to test their skills up against others in a freindly enviroment just to see where their strengths and weaknesses lay.

    Now as Lucy said, it took the guy a bit of time to close the white belt off and he finally with his expeariance he eventually gained the upperhand, he took his time and once the other guy was tired he took the advantage? Mmmmm Typical BJJ aproach is it not? He did admit afterwards that if it were not for the helmet he would have been seriously damaged and time is not a luxury you are allowed to have when facing a weapon.

    Now is this so hard to beleive that someone (regardless of who they are) who has never played in the type of pressure testing environment that we use would have difficulty in the first instance then have to adjust his game plan and then adapt to the situation and finally get the better of the opponent? No of course not, it happens all the time in a pressure environment. He admited his weakness and seen the relevance an merits of what we were doing and I am pretty sure he has adjusted his out look to his training for outside the gym, taking into account the pitfalls of comming up against a weapon and would if on the street now treat a weapons encounter with a little more respect.

    Thank god he took time to adjust in an environment where he could learn from his mistakes, what if the same thing would have happened to him out on the street and there was no protective gears and no fear from the opponent about going all the way and making maximum damage? would he have had time to adjust his game then and learn from it? Doubtfull. And at best would have been a very painfull and eye opening expeariance.

    Did he learn valuable lessons? More than likely.

    Did it make him an any worse BJJ player? No of course not, even top players in any MA make mistakes, errors and very often have to readjust their thinking once they see people who specialise like they do in a certain area.

    So before calling someone a lier, engage the brain and think. Not everyone lies in order to make themselves look good, espeically using their real name (unlike some) on a public forum, that is just asking for trouble. Some people actually base their responces on personaly expeariances, and have gained good reputations all by themsleves without having to name drop and say they know this guy and the next guy really well. We can all play the name dropping game. The fact that Lucy chose not to does not mean she is lying, it just means she has the confidence to speak from expeariance without having to name drop and has respect for other peoples reputations.

    Now in her responce she has given you a breif outline of just her MMA background, trust me when I say her background and expeariance goes far far deeper than that and she is in fact being very modest and I personally see no reason why she has to explain herself to you just because you think she is lying.

    All I will say is this, you know what thay say about people who throw stones in glass houses?


  13. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    Thank-you for you post. I am glad there are others that can see what I am seeing.

    I think people in the UK are just closing there eyes and hoping it goes away.

    I am afraid people, it is not all cricket and scones anymore.

    Why else did the UK announce a knife amnesty only this week on Thursday and yet another child has been stabbed outside his school yesturday (Friday).

    So when people say, it depends where you live. I am afraid I can only answer that I live in the real world. Where else is there? I do not think a murderer or rapist is going to take into account where you live either.

    Lots of love :love:

    Last edited: May 27, 2006
  14. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    believe it or not, many people spend there whole lives without living in fear, i waked through town today and got some shopping, i was neither mugged nor was i stabbed, at no time was i even threatened.

    i train martial arts because i enjoy it, i cant account for every situation, and i cant seriously expect to beat the crap out of multiple armed opponents.
    unless i am in a armed gang myself or carrying a machine gun

    your best weapon in self defense is your mind, if you think there is a real chance of you or your family being knifed to death, then dont go out simple. of course you cant always avoid trouble, sometimes it just seems to find you,

    during my 34 years i have been threatened with a knife twice, but only once was a knife visible. apart from that i have not been involved in a fight for 5 years or so.

    there is a place for paranoia but it does not rule my life, nor even my training.
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Great video, even at how old it is now, it still applies.

    Just to point out, the video does get into some strategies against edged weapons and to a very large degree I can say that it promotes the training in grappling skills when in close quarters with a knife. Such statements were in the video such as "you can't punch your way out of a knife fight" or something like that quote (I need to watch the video again to get the quote exactly right). Not entirely true, but for most people and situations, true enough to be of great concern if you are ever in a situation against an edged weapon.

    The video does feature Dan Inosanto with a knife and frankly, it doesn't matter what you do, you are probably dead if he has a knife, you don't have a weapon, and I'll leave the rest for your imagination. However, some real life police statistics that are old now but relevant at the time of the video (and probably are still relevant) showed that most of those that survived a real attack got a hold of the weapon arm and never let go (somehow kept control of it).

    Now just based on the premise that you have more of a fighting chance of survival if you do gain control of the weapon arm and the weapon with it, for many martial artists, I would think that they really haven't been training for that situation.

    I'm not saying grappling is the answer, but I will say that it is a hell of a good place to start when it comes to learning how to control an arm and a weapon in that arm. Defending against other weapons (such as a second knife) is a step up from there, but you have to have some place to start.

    Just a really big note here... Gracie fought in UFC when they did not have weight classes. I really don't care how simplified people try to put it, but I don't buy that things work just because someone pulled it off, I've got to know why, when, and how it works. I've got to know it is going to work with NO WEIGHT CLASSES at least enough to give a fighting chance of survival.

    This is why I really believe in many of the things taught in grappling, especially BJJ/GJJ because it can work with no weight classes, against people twice your size.

    This is also why I believe in striking to many vital areas such as to the eyes and throat because it can work with no weight classes, against people twice your size.

    This is just my opinion, take it or leave it.
  16. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    I am not living in paranoia either as I assume that is what you are getting at.

    How about getting back on track. The subject we are all talking about is womens self defence and someone brought up the fact that grappling is all you need.

    Do you have an opinion or are you just trolling?

    It is not paranoia to consider the fact that a weapon may be brought into the situation. And it is not paranoia training for athat situation either, even if it is never to happen. Soldiers train for war, does not mean they will end up in one. The Government are always paranoid though, I mean why bother with an army.

    I too, agree that people do martial arts for fun....I have already mentioned this earlier. I also enjoy martial arts.

    But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about self defence if you are attacked, which is different from the martial arts you are talking about. It is a whole different ball game mate.

    Is it so paranoid to train realisticly for self defence even though there is a high chance you may not need it. The majority of the population never get attacked, but those that do wish they had the knowledge and how to deal with it realisticly. Not marching up and down a hall or rolling around the floor making funny noises.

    'It is better to know it and not need it, than need it and not know it.' Wouldn't you agree? Or am I just being paranoid.

    So unless you have a point to your citicism and perhaps an input of your own, you are in the wrong most certainly will not save lives with that attitude.

    "it is alright girls, today we will learn how not to be paranoid"..."Don't bother training for self defence, what's the chances of something happening anyway and you are just being paranoid turning up today, so go home look after the babies, do the washing up and all the housework like you know you should be doing and anyway who gave you permission to come today".

    "It is alll safe now girls we have been given the go ahead"

    "It is official, Sankaku-jime told us it is all o.k outside".

    Is this a womens self defence column or not? Maybe I need advice not criticism. So maybe you can tell us what we should be doing to prepare ourselves for a self defence situation should it accidentally occur as obviously it is not likely eh.

    Lots of love :love:

    Last edited: May 27, 2006
  17. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    Rebel Wado....I agree with you.

    The way you talk about the grappling from your point of view is completly acceptable.

    I think the method you were talking about in the video is the GUN method, grip, untie and neutralize...if I remember rightly. It was many years ago that I watched it too.

    However, I do not consider that grappling.

    I think I will watch it again now as I only really remember the graphics.

    It just scares me to think people would automatically start struggling and throwing without weighing up the situation and allow people to believe they are going to pull off locks and breaks with promise of a good result.

    Lots of love :love:

  18. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    i not sure about that you seem to be seeing knives and armed attacks around every corner.

    grappling is not all you need, grappling alone is not enough

    discusions have a a way of meanersing, its called a dialogue, so stop trying to dictate the progression of this thread

    yes lots, read my posts, i dont troll but i do enjoy troll baiting at times,

    you cant spend your whole life training for that streetfight of armed attack that may never happen. that sort of mindset is just no sustainable,

    if that is the only reason why you Martial Arts you will soon get bored, there has to be more to it than that.

    well at least we agree on something.

    this is a dialogue a discusion, not a monologue. we discuss we debate if you cant deal with that them maybe its you who is in the wrong place.

    paranoia has its place, but too much is just unhealthy,

    humour its place too.
  19. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    Sorry just realised I typed head but meant Hips, tilting your head forward will have no effect on your groin :eek:
  20. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    Could someone tilt their head forward on my groin and prove this? :p :D

Share This Page