Martial Arts styles that are better for women for Self Defense? {Split from Stories}

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by Jesh, Oct 22, 2005.

  1. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    I have been kicked in the balls quite a few times, attempted more, it's easy to avoid, easy to minimise the effect (just try tilting your head forward or closing your legs) and vastly overrated as a technique, saying that if you get a clear shot go for it, what do you have to lose.
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Which type of groin kick(s) are you referring to?

    1. A rising shin or top of foot between the legs from the front
    2. A front snap/thrust kick to the small intestines
    3. A rising snap kick striking the inside of the leg with the blade of the foot as the ball of the foot strikes up into the scrotum, toes grab the skin and rip
    4. a rising shin between the legs from behind, using the foot to attack the groin and the shin to attack the tail bone

    Just wondering
  3. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    O.k BJJ may have improved someones fighting ability, but any time spent in any martial art is going to help with confidence and any good instructor is going to bring out your fighting ability, if that is what you yourself are looking for in your training.

    But some people do not want to know how to become a fighter in a class or even in competitions. They only want to increase their opportunity of escaping an attack on the street. No more no less.

    I believe for self defence you need to know varying escapes from different holds and pins, but not a lesson in grappling. The last place you want to be if you can help it on the street is on the floor rolling about searching for possible locks. Escapes, yes but a lock or break is not going to end your ordeal.

    Weapons need to be considered, what if he has a knife or any impliment really? Also what if there is more than one attacker? What if he is 5 time bigger than you? And I am sorry if you do break someone's arm from a follow through on a lock, with the addenaline pumping round the guys system, you will more than likely just **** him off big time and what started out as an attack will probably end up in murder instead. These have all got to be taken into account on the street. The last place you want to be if you can help it, is on the floor grappling.

    Even if the guy has you in a hold initially, you have to consider the risks of continuing a grapple with him.

    We had one of our 18 year old white belts fight no rules against a very high profile, famous BJJ guy with a stick each and a headguard (nothing else). The BJJ guy who's name I will not mention thought his grappling seriously outweighed any other art on the planet, so much so he agreed to fight no rules anything goes, just there is a weapon in play too. It took him 2 and a half minutes to finally submit our white belt who had no experience atall in BJJ or any type of grappling and also had very limited knowledge of the stick and/or kicking and punching. He had only been doing martial arts for 3 months. He did have alot of confidence and spirit though which is why we allowed him to fight.

    The first minute and a half, the white belt pretty much controlled the whole fight and our BJJ guy will admit he got that many hits to the head that he probably would not have survived even a minute without the headgear and his body was briused seriously all over, in paticular his back from leaning in to shoot. Approaching nearly two minutes the BJJ guy decided to forget the stick that was hitting him and rush in to grapple regardless (he had tried shooting in throughout the fight, but was at that point taking into account the stick), only problem was the white belt got at least 5 very good clean hard shots to his head and then even once on the floor grappling it took him nearly a minute to submit our white belt who had no grappling skills but still had his stick pounding at the BJJ guy on the floor. It was only that our white belt began to tire with the weight of the guy (much bigger) on top of him that a submission was eventually won. The BJJ guy with untold experience could not get a hold, lock or an attempt at a break with someone hitting him with a weapon.

    The BJJ guy said. I am good at my sport but I would have been knocked out or even killed in under a minute. He even knew that our guy was not very skilled, he just had a weapon and alot of heart.

    Now imagine if that is someone that genuinely wants to hurt you for gain and alot to loose him he does not do it properly.

    Don't get me wrong, I like BJJ and I even have a british MMA title of my own, which I won back in 2001. I would quite like my son and daughter to do something like BJJ. But remember it is just a sport, it is in no way fit for the street as a be all and end all result to all our problems on the street, as there are far to many scenarios not taken into account for street defense in the BJJ systems.

    I think all women should train in a martial art and yes if you do regularly train you will have the confidence to do things you would once of only imagined and yes you will probably increase your chances of escape too if attacked

    I think what several are saying is that you cannot be taught a well rounded martial art in the 20 or 40 hours that most people will attend for for self protection, but you can teach what has been statistically proven to work from previous records of attacks and they are talking about very large statistics worldwide and I these courses they have been proven to save lives.

    In my opinion though, I would not put my life into the hands of a short self protection course.

    And the balls not kick them. You kick them, they just pull up into the protective pelvic area, that is what they are designed to do as the bodies natural line of defence on contact with the balls. O.k it does hurt sometimes but will not have the effect you expect. If you are going to hit them you need to hit down from the top, this hurts far more and if you get the chance grab pull and twist. Now this hurts and has an effect.

    I call this bladdereyes. Pull the bladder and give it to the eyes. Show him you have got them, give him a close up view. And while you are there, give his eyes a good gauge. No-one has strong eyes.

    When I used to go running I had a fear that someone may jump out towards the end of my run when it was dark and I was tired so I always used to carry a kubatan (SP) keyring with my keys on. Incase you do not know what it is, it is a metal cylinder strip with a point on. You can use the bar for striking pressure points or hold the bar and swing your keys as a weapon. It used to fit nicely in my hand and seeing as I had to carry my keys anyway it made sense.

    I will go now, but it is nice to see people talking in the womens self defense thread.

    Lots of love :love:

    Last edited: May 26, 2006
  4. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    go tell that to Helios or Rickson
  5. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    I am going by experience.

    Most BJJ experts that I have met, do not take weapons into account at any stage of a confrontation. It just is not drilled into them.

    They cannot grapple a knife and that is that. You would be stupid to do so. And on the street, you have to take weapons into account at every stage of the confrontation. Just because you don't see it initially, does not mean it does not come into play.

    Lots of love :love:

  6. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    what i meant was go tell this to Rickson or Helios

  7. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    I am pretty sure they cannot fight for the whole BJJ worldwide community.

    Unfortunately, there are others who teach the art all over the world too and the reputation they are giving and getting it, is as a sport.

    There will always be individuals in arts that can show more dimension to the art. But they are few and far between and even these people often look outside their own four walls and test their skills or even get lessons in other arts, in order to improve their own already attained skills in order to improve them and show them other aspects. This is a real martial artist regardless of art or style.

    But your average BJJ'er is just going to attend the class once or twice a week at their local centre and will only walk away with what they are given in those four walls and will often walk round blinkered for years, thinking they are indestructable because they have some new found confidence on the mat in class amongst friends. This will get you killed, you have to accept you are somewhat doing it for fun, unless adapted for the street, it will not save you on the street.

    Lots of love :love:

  8. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    your statement could be applied to all Martial Artists of any discipline.

    Martial Arts Training has to be fun else people would get pretty bored quickly,

    i agree to a certain extent that BJJ is mostly taught for sport, but i think people who train BJJ for sport Jujutsu realise this and dont walk around thinking they are indestructable,
  9. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    So are you saying they would go and grapple someone that may have a knife?

    I always highly regarded them as individuals, in the martial arts.

    Baring in mind that someone is not going to atack you without some kind of back up plan.

    Lots of love :love:

  10. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    i dont know, you'd have to ask them,

    BJJ is an exellent art, escapes, locks, jokes, throws, all honed against resisting opponents, and certainly usefull in a real situation.

    does it have all the answers, personally i dont think so, but it does have an exelllent arsenal of techniques
  11. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    Grappling is fine empty handed one on one up against someone who does not know about grappling, assuming you know for sure that they are empty handed, but..........

    This is a trained policeman that thought he could grapple a guy with a knife as opposed to shooting him with his gun.

    Please feel free to remove the picture if it is offensive to anyone.

    So maybe you can understand why I say avoid grappling on the street at all costs.

    Lots of love :love:


    Attached Files:

  12. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    I cannot argue with Lucy there after seeing that pic (as brutal as it is, it does drive the point ;) ) Taking into consideration that most street attacks are multiple and armed, should not grappling be used only as an unavoidable option?

    Good read here
    Street Grappling, A Recipe for Disaster
  13. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    i'm not sure that most street attacks are armed, multiple, but armed i suppose that the depends where you live,

    as for grappling being the last resort, i would have to agree, grappling would usualy be the last resort, but chances are you wont choose to grapple, it will just happen, then you will have to
  14. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I think if you asked them yourself you would find that they too would have a very similar answer. Rickson and Helios as well as many of the other Gracies and Machado's are exception martial artists who have done exception things to make the Martial Arts world sit up and listen to the merits of the art of Ju Jitsu, but am pretty sure they too would not feel comfortable grappling someone to the ground who had intent of cutting them to peices, and if they had the oppertunity they would more than likely shoot them.
    Grappling has it place as does all other Martial Arts and I am a firm beleiver that you have to learn those skills, epsecially women. Because all too often when a women is attacked it is usually only for a couple of reasons.

    1. Take her money, which in most cases does not involve the attacker teking her to the ground, but does in most cases involve a weapon to presuade her to give up her purse, that weapon 9 times out of 10 will be a knife.

    2. To cause Domestic Viloence which can involve the husband or boyfreind sitting on her and punching her, so yes grappling to escape can come in as an advantage, but the best line of defence for this is to leave the relationship.

    3. To rape or cause sexual abuse to her, again all to often this will involve the assailant grappling her to the floor in order to carry out her crime, but he too will know that not all women take it lying down (no pun intended) they all too often struggle, so yes some grappling skills are in order, but he knows this and most of the time he will bring along an item that will convince her not to struggle, Yes you guessed it, 9 times out of 10 it is a knife.

    4. To kill her, very few murders are carried out without the use of a weapon even if it is to gain control of the victim and most of those used are with knives.

    The best place an attacker with a knife can have you is, wait for it........ Grappling range, it is the most effective range for the knife.

    Yes you need to learn grappling so you can escape, you need to learn how to kick and punch, lock and joint break to give you a fighting chance, but you also need to know and have a good basic understanding of how weapons are used and how to avoid and or counter them in a realistic manner.

    No one art has all the answers but I feel the one that comes the closest if you need one is FMA, they train in all the areas I have mentioned and they train with resisting partners.

    Too many people underestimate the humble knife and think that it can just be placed to one side, but in reality it is the humble knife that is involved in most violent attacks.

    Best regards

  15. NewLearner

    NewLearner Valued Member

    I would have to disagree. Most do think they are indestructable. Just like most 15-22 year olds do. And most jocks. Ad nauseum. The reality is that no one is indestructable and any of us can die today. No matter how good you are and how bad your opponent is, they can still win due to dumb luck. I just prefer to minimize the chances of falling due to dumb luck.
  16. NewLearner

    NewLearner Valued Member

    To some extent you are right. It is used far too often and guys instinctively protect it. I tell my wife that it is not the place to go for. Instead, go for the knee. Most don't protect it.

    I wouldn't tilt my head forward though. That would be a good way to get knocked out.
  17. BocaDeCalca

    BocaDeCalca New Member

    Since he and my instructor have shared space, i'd rather not post it publicly here, to avoid drama. I can PM it to you, if you want.


    We did a scenario where someone tries to stomp you while you're on your back. To their credit, I was told to really try to stomp. Still, when it was my turn to defend, I was told not to try to go to open guard, sweep the guy, etc.
    It wasn't horrible, like most self defense, but there wasn't very much resistance, except for the abovementioned work (the rest of the class was dead drilling and hitting the bags).
  18. BocaDeCalca

    BocaDeCalca New Member

    Hopefully isn't good enough.

    Again, the story on the beggining of the thread this one was split from shows exactly this mentality not working. The woman was attacked with the classic "rear bear hug" for which umpty bajillion defenses are taught in your average SD class, two of which she attempted, and failed entirely.

    Or, in other words, there are no shortcuts. Self defense is not easy, and requires the investment of many hours of work in an athletic, competitive environment.

    Well, have you ever done BJJ or been in a jiujitsu match? There's a LOT of adrenaline going through your system, especially for a begginer.
  19. BocaDeCalca

    BocaDeCalca New Member

    This is weak reasoning and can easily be adressed with an answer from the FAQ.

    Since we're talking specifically about women's self defense, I don't see how this is relevant.

    I don't see why the hell not. Who keeps on fighting with a dislocated elbow or shoulder joint?

    What if indeed? We could play the what if game for hours, or we could get in the gym and get some functional training, which is exactly where i'm headed when this post is done.

    Again, a fallacy. If you start out with him holding you, you are ALREADY GRAPPLING. You do not have any choice in the matter.

    This I frankly disbelieve. It reeks of unverifiable anecdote. In fact, I think you're lying, especially in light of the dog brothers style of stickfighting tournament/throwdown, where grappling predominates, despite a full contact approach with rattan sticks.
    Who is this "high profile, famous BJJ guy"? I know several gracies and can easily verify any claim you make.

    Name and promotion please.
  20. ryanTKD

    ryanTKD New Member

    PLEASE, tell me you mean aforementioned.

Share This Page