Martial Arts styles that are better for women for Self Defense? {Split from Stories}

Okay I am a white belt in BJJ, who trains with Bocadecalc. I am also a girl. I have also taken self-defense classes offered by university police officers. The SD stuff was useful to me at the time. However, BJJ has much more to offer than any SD course can effectively offer to a woman.

If an attacker comes from behind.. I know how to defend against taking of the back. Especially since I am trained in the art, any doofus smart enough to try me is not going to have the techniques I have. I will be able to escape their very bad mount, side mount, or guard with ease.

Now when you think of BJJ techniques you need to think beyond the training you get on the mats. You need to think of what the BJJ guys do, in lets say UFC or Pride. They throw punches from guard, etc. What do you do if you have mount or guard lets say? Punch him, make him hurt, make him defend, make him expose his arms to an armbar or move into a triangle position. What if he has your back? Then you will know how to escape the back with BJJ, pull a reversal, escape from his guard

Unlike what Tellner suggests, if the two of you are rolling around and you are trying to escape, you get him in to a submission position then by all means dislocated an arm, leg, what-have-you, or put him in to a sleeper choke, then run. When your being attacked its not a training or sparring sessions. It's a matter of life and death. So therefore, you don’t tap him out and let him back up. The law is going to be own your side, plus your a woman, it is automatically your word against his (political correctness argument for this can be saved for another day). Frankly, the sucker who tries to rape/kill whatever me is going to be mighty sorry because the first ride he is going to get afterwards is one to the hospital.

Size matter much less in BJJ than it does in other arts. Unlike other SD techniques, in BJJ size does not really play a factor, nor does weight. Hell, I have tapped out guys who weigh 50 lbs heavier then me and was about a foot taller than me. If you know your techniques and you should if your smart and you train BJJ not some wussy TKD, then you will be quite fine.

What women should take from a SD class? Carrying around sharp objects? Yes, carrying your keys in a certain way so that they are nice scratching and stabbing thingies may be a good defense. However, blood is not going to scare away the more intense attackers. Kicking in the groin sure is going to hurt, but hey sometimes the pain doesn't last that long or some guys can suck it up. Physical pain won't deter the really sick weirdoes out there. Think about it, does chemical castration really work? Sure it kills off their gonads, but not the urge. That is mental. The really mental guys are really going to suffer through the pain to get what is going to get them off. Hell the pain might even get them off. The thrill of a lively fight might be just the thing to get a sicko at the peak of his excitement other than getting to your nether regions or what have you. Even pepper spray may not deter an attacker. You won’t know until it happens, god forbid.

Therefore, there lays the reason to properly know how to choke people out, knowing armbars enough so you know how much pressure it takes to take their arm out of their sockets or break them so they can't chase you. Think about it. Who is still going to be able to chase you more efficiently? A guy who is recovering, at any pace, from a kick in the groin, head butt, superficial starch with keys ore a ring – basically the guy who is bearing through the pain but is still awake and has usable ligaments? Or the guy who had his arm dislocated, leg dislocated, or put in a sleeper choke? Also what is the deal with the head butt? Sure, if you manage to pull it off correctly it wont hurt AS MUCH, but why risk giving yourself a sever headache, possibly causing tunnel vision when you need to get away. Really. That is just RETARDED. So, yeah, how I see it BJJ training is invaluable to a women’s arsenal when it comes to surviving an attacker.

 

IMPACT (twice) and a sample lesson of the Blauer program, plus extensive reading on the subject and laughing at the shreedder.

 

Ok, after reading your posts I think I've zeroed in on something...

One point that needs to be made clear is that we're not denying that people can make great progress towards self defense in BJJ or any other resistance training program. In fact, resistance training is a cornerstone of RBSD programs like Blauers.

What Tellner and I take issue with is a suggestion that BJJ is the best or only method to learn self defense. Nor does it necessarily cover all the aspects of self defense.

I definitely think that BJJ can be a more more rewarding and deep practice over the long term. And I think Thorton's points about the fitness improvements are well taken.

Which Blauer coach did you work with? Did you get a chance to work with high gear? Did you do any scenario work?

- Matt

 

I really don't know how to get the point through to you. Your preconceptions about what Matt and I are saying are just too thick for facts, logic or plain words to get through. I'll try one more time:

1) Wrestling (which includes BJJ) is good stuff for self defense.
2) It is only a part of a good self defense program. If it is constituted as sport, even a very good sport, it will need to be modified to be optimal in a different environment.
3) More training is always good. If you don't have a lot of time you teach what will give the highest-percentage results in ths shortest time.
4) Position is important. It is still only a means to an end. Knee-to-abdomen is nice. If that's your goal you will come up short if your goal should have been "survive this attack".
5) The most important thing, and we have thirty years of real research, not "My BJJ teacher told me that our martial art is the best thing since crunchy peanut butter and nobody ever raped Rickson", but real, controlled, multi-study, peer-reviewed, cross-discipline research, has shown that the single most important thing is to fight like hell when it's time to fight. Technique is at best tertiary. Unless it's with a gun or a knife, but that's a different thing.
6) A lot of the BJJ finishing holds can be very good. If your orientation is "get a submission" you will come up short again. Or worse, they will submit, you let them go, and they come after you. If you want to teach any martial art as a self defense program you have to change your training methods and your student's reactions to apply to self defense rather than submission in a contest. You fight the way you train.
7) The UFC, Pride and K-1 have the square root of nothing to do with women's self defense. The situation is different. The possible outcomes are different. The conditions for success are different. Most of all, the UFC is a contest between two large, matched-for-weight body-nazis who have studied each other's fights and who plan to go home friends at the end of the day. That is not the model for someone who has decided he wants to shove his penis into your rectum without permission, preferably by betraying your trust in him. Even if your technique is good your chances of prevailing will be much higher if you've had training that prepares you for that dynamic.
8) No matter how many times you say otherwise, size matters in a fight. It isn't insurmountable, which is why good training (and lots of it) is important, but the mantra mumbled by so many BJJ players (though not by the Gracie family) that BJJ negates size is hogwash. Pass the guard by stacking? Not when you're 110 pounds and he's 210. You have to change what you train to accomodate reality.
9) Most of the technique I've seen in submission wrestling including BJJ has been designed for male bodies. Even if we granted that BJJ was the supreme ultimate nothing could possibly be better that would have to be addressed. For instance, the standard bridge doesn't work nearly as well for women. But there is a way of modifying it that takes advantage of their greater hip rotation.
10) IMPACT and Model Mugging haven't changed much since the early days. The world really has passed them by.

So look, I'm not trying to say "BJJ sucks!" I'm saying that martial arts may be useful for self defense. But it is not self defense. To be useful for self defense a program has to be designed for the sorts of situations and dynamics the student is likely to encounter. Will a good wrestling program help all by itself? Of course. Will it be a complete answer? Of course not. In the real world it is only one tool out of many, and completely worthless if it doesn't come with the right mindset. The thing that started this whole interchange (I hesitate to call it a conversation) was "dirty tricks". They are more than anything a way of developing that mindset.

And that is close to everything I have to say on the subject.

 

Why would you let them go? An armbar isn't a way to make someone tap your leg to say "okay let's get up now!" It's an armbar. It breaks an arm. It works regardless of the size of the attacker and defender.


The whole point of a "submission" isn't pain compliance. It's one fighter recognizing that the one who has him in the hold could destroy him by arching his back just a little more or just keeping the choke on for thirty more seconds. You submit out of recognition that the other person has an insurmountable advantage and you have no chance to defeat them - if you continued to fight, you would either die or be crippled.

I think "going for a submission" is marvellously effective for self-defense, especially women. You don't need to have a punching match for five minutes against someone that can shrug off your blows while hitting much, much harder; you don't need to rely on a magic knockout roundhouse; you don't need to rely on teh magic groinshot; you certainly don't need to rely on mad flailing that just gives them openings to take you down and gain the advantage. You break the arm or choke them unconscious, both of which work very well even against those much stronger than you, and you suddenly have all the advantages.

 

I'm not sure that's the case. A small woman trying to bar a big fella is just gonna get muscled out of it.

 

I get frequently armbarred by the peppy little 1st kyu in the club, and I have sixty pounds of mostly muscle on her.

Regarding submissions in general, skill >> strength. For evidence, see UFC 1-6.

 

The best armbars isolate the arm very effectively and if the opponent can muscle out of it once you're already in position and applying the lock, he's too big for any other move in your arsenal.

 

But surely a large male rapist is likely to have more arm strength than his victim and won't allow the lock to begin being applied?

I was thinking more along the lines of him muscling out before you've fully applied the lock. Plus it may indeed be the case that he's too big for any move in your arsenal. Very few female self-defence courses recommend grappling with your opponent. It's all about sticking your keys in his eye, scraping your shoes on his shin, twisting his cojones etc etc

 

First of all, there is a self-defense aspect of training BJJ that I have trained in. This aspect includes stand-up grappling, punching, elbows, kicks, etc. If you are only training BJJ in the shoot and ground grappling, I cannot say that is anything but sport because it isn't well rounded enough to be considered self-defense. IMHO.

Gracie wouldn't let go, he would break it definitely. However, some people don't have the experience in breaking arms that they think they do. Some get a submission but they are already near their own full range of motion. You need to develop submissions that work at less than maybe a third your range of motion, therefore you have plenty (triple) the distance left to finish the break.

Yes this is a training issue that some can get the submission but are unable to follow through to the break because their technique is not good.

No, some submissions are pain compliance, some are blood or breathing chokes, some are tendon breaks, some ligament breaks, there are many kinds.

The reason one taps out is a conscious decision based on what you say (self-preservation). Just because someone taps out, that doesn't mean they give up the fight in a real situation.

Real situations you can get the person that gives up which is great on the up and up, but I know from personal experience that you also can get the person that won't give up. Even if they tap out, and even if you break their arm, they will keep fighting.

Only way someone really gives up is they decide to give up, that means dialogue or talking them down... negotiation skills. You just have a lot of clout negotiating with an armbar put on them or your thumb pressing in their eye ball.

Oh boy.... you are entitled to your opinion.

Let's set this up with some realism... take an attacker that has maybe fifty or more pounds advantage on the defender, allow that attacker to punch the defender in the face, eyes, throat full power while the defender is only allowed to go for the submission. How much training does the defender need to pull the submission off? One week, one month, one year, ten years? Now how long and many classes do you actually have to train this defender to defend themselves?

 

This is a critical point. There is no question that BJJ is one of the most effective methods of unarmed ground combat. But, if self defense starts only when you are in the fight, on the ground, with the person on top of you, then it's already way too late.

The critical thing about a good RBSD program is that it addresses everything that happens BEFORE punches get thrown.

- Matt

 

I agree with what you said Matt, but just to clarify, my example did not assume the attacker and defender were on the ground.

 

Well, muscling out of an armbar before it's locked on is a lot easier, but that's where skill in setting up and transitioning into armbars comes into play. Isn't that the same as anything else in martial arts?

I can't pretend to know about female self-defense courses and grappling is something that takes time and effort to learn (and be proficient in, of course). So that makes sense.

A key in the eye sounds effective, although if your opponent it oh so much bigger and stronger, you'd better get it right on the first shot. But scraping his shin? What's that supposed to do?

 

Another thing to consider is that self defense isn't fighting. It may include fighting, but there's a lot more to it. Part of this is, once again, stopping things as soon as you can. The earlier you can finish it, the less the attacker has invested in the attack unless he has some reason to want to kill you personally.

If prevention, avoidance and deterrence don't work, then we're onto resistance. A defender who doesn't really get into the good stuff until she's already on the ground and ground-grappling may well have passed up good opportunities to stop things earlier. Once she's there, BJJ all the way! or Sambo, the way to go!

 

Hurt like heck! Hopefully enough for him to loosed his grip and you can do a runner to somewhere a bit more open and safe.

Most courses in self defence teach techniques that require very little strength or technique as they've got to be pulled off under very very stressful circumstances usually against a larger person. This pretty much consists of what we'd consider "dirty" fighting - but if some scumweasel is trying to assault you, then your safety is more important that being a gentlewoman.

As you said, a lady who'd trained for years in BJJ would certainly have an advantage should she end up on the ground, but whether that advantage would extent to being able to arm bar a large, adrenaline fueled male attacker I'm not so sure of.

 

I don't disagree that training in BJJ for years would give you an edge on the ground (against the vast majority of opponents, at least), but I'm not sure where you're getting that out of what I said...

Anyway, I don't believe scraping the shin would be effective, especially against some big, strong guy. I'm a normal-sized guy and scraping my shins with your shoes wouldn't do anything (unless your shoes have razor blades on them or something). I doubt that big guys have more fragile shins.

 

I disagree with going for the eyes or balls theory. That just makes people mad. I was wrestling around with a friend and when I got him in an armbar he punched me in the nuts, and all he accomplished with it was me breaking his jaw. Eyes hurt but it takes more force then you'd think to actually blind someone. I think you'd have to break one of your attacker's bones. You can easily snap someones forearm by kneeing it while pulling it down at the same time(like MT clinch). Or do a police style armbar and stomping on their elbow. If the attacker is determined you have to incapacite them, not just cause pain.

 

How could he punch you in the nuts if you had him in an armbar?

This is a friend and you broke his jaw? From in an armbar?

Easily break a forearm?

Groin shots and eye gouges are not some magical panacea removing the need for training but never underestimate the effect of a so called "cheap" shot. There's more to it then just pain.

 

The point of an eye gouge or a kick between the legs isn't to disable your opponent. It is to buy time for you to get out of the hold he may have you in and to get away. I'm sorry, but I'd have to take a moment to recover no matter how much pain tolerance I had if a woman kicked me between the legs or scraped my eyes with a key.

 

I agree about driving a key into an eye, because that's some serious damage. Sure, attacking the eye in general might not pay off, but a key in the eye will blind that eye and might send the opponent right into shock.

The thing about kicking the groin is that it's not very reliable. If you're desperate, anything is better than nothing, but otherwise I'd go for something more reliable.