martial arts: search for enlightenment or learning to whoop ass!

Once again i am being attacked on something people are not getting, i am not saying these old men are powerful, or urban myths as someone seems to think they are

These are just men that have purely gone with what they truely wanted to do, and so continue to fight into old age, as good as those who may be at the peak of their fighting skill, THAT IS NO URBAN MYTH, THAT IS FACT! Research into it if you continue to think such things, but the point i was trying to put across, is that these men that have kept going have gain MANY more years experience than any of us here, and so have the knowledge to know the things that we pass over, and have that type of ""Enlightenment"" that we continue to debate about, the full apprieciation for things we take for granted

But i do agree on some of the other statements as well, that martial arts only puts this whole matter in words, it doesnt teach you how to be enlightened

 

I'm afraid you've looked at the finger pointing at the moon and gone and missed the point. I'm not talking about purist anything. Deciphering history from ancient texts is not an exact science, and it is difficult/impossible to draw conclusions from them without being subjective and that is certaintly the case here. Just because some researchers cast doubt on something, and it catches on with everyone, this doesn't make it fact. 'CMA existed hundreds of years before Damo and he had nothing to do with them, it was shown to the monks by toe-rags hiding out in the temples. The masters of styles who have been drawing their lineage from him for centuries and centuries were all completely deluded.' *cough* Proof? (but possible )

Completely true and you would be as good a martial artist. But do you not take any pride in taking skills which originated a long time ago, and have been developed and passed down through generations of martial artists, and developing and passing them on yourself? I.e. being part of a well established tradition? The gear/customs/etc. are just part of that tradition.

Incidentally, I have no first hand experience of 'old' masters who are indestructable because no-one is. But I do have first hand experience of 'old' masters who's skills are so highly developed (and rely so little on muscle which is one of the first things to go as you get older), as well as other issues I'm not getting into right now, that they are as close to indestructable as your ever likely to find. So please, try not to put everyone down so harshly, I don't think it can realistically be called into question that there are other training methods apart from purely external ones, which stand to you better as you become older.

 

I'm beginning to forget why I like posting to forums.

If you've read anything else I've ever posted, or even the other posts in this forum, you'll see that I agree with you. My point, again, is that just saying "I do this to whoop ass" is overly simplistic. In most cases, it doesn't stem from any quantifiable need to whoop ass. It comes out of people enjoying fighting (whether in the ring or no). And it just seems to me that it's a logical question to ask why we enjoy fighting. It's not a judgment. Again, if you've ever read anything I've posted, you know I support sparring wholeheartedly.

So yes, it is about fighting. But what's the fighting about?


Stuart

 

Hmm. So, you aren't necessarily making a distinction between 'whooping ass' and 'fighting'? As I feel that the former is a perfectly understandable, if rather colloquial, explanation of a desire for the latter. I take it to mean that the person in question enjoys the challenge of beating another human being in a spar - 'whooping his/her ass'. I don't see why that is necessarily oversimplifying matters, as it is merely a blunt way of saying 'I do MA for competition'. I do not interpret 'whoop ass' as literally beat people up, but as particularly exuberant slang terminology for soundly defeating your opponent in a spar.

Some people do certain things for very simple reasons.

Do you see the question of why do human beings enjoy conflict as a philosophical one? Personally, I would say it is probably more due to biology, particularly in the case of men. Men are often competitive, and 'fighting' is one of the purest methods of expelling that need for competition, or rather, the need to dominate and be acclaimed 'the best'. Of course, that doesn't explain why there are also women who like to 'whoop ass', although both men and women contain testostorone.

No doubt there have been medical studies on the competitive drive.

 

No, I'm not drawing a distinction. I'm just taking the next logical step. Why do we enjoy competition? You've answered that question already. Biology. I'm not convinced by that. But this doesn't seem to be a popular line of discussion. So I'll drop it. Dig?

Yep. I'm not convinced that spending years of your life drilling, conditioning, and developing techniques for personal combat is really one of those "certain things." But, again, I appear to be in the minority on that one.

Philosophical? Yeah, I guess. I think a psychological look at it would be more useful though. But whatever. I don't think my view is catching on. And I'd quite like to preserve the sanctity of this dead horse. So "whooping ass" it is.


Stuart

 

"Martial arts historians stress that Kung Fu did not start at the Shaolin Temple, but simply began to flourish under Shaolin's influence. A brief history of Kung Fu can trace its origins back some 4,000 years to 2,674 BC, when Emperor Huang Ti used a rudimentary form of martial arts called Chiou Ti as a form of individual combat and military tactic. In 2,600 BC a new style of combat named Go-Ti came into being which had wrestling as its main focus. In about 600 BC, Confucius declared it necessary to cultivate the martial arts. Lao Tzu (a Taoist sage), living at the same time, composed the Tao Te Ching (The Power and the Way), the original book and foremost source of Taoism."

taken from http://www.essaycrawler.com/viewpaper/41449.html

There are far more well documented studys that have been outlined in The Journal of Asian Martial Arts. As far as the Emperor actualy creating martial arts, don't believe that. Its well documented that in Chinese culture Emperor's were credited with many of the advances that happened during their reigns.

As far as the notion that how could so many martial arts instructors have been reciciting false history, one needs only to look to the vast amount of misinformation begin spread by schools about the history of TKD (and other Korean arts) to understand how quickly this sorta thing can become institutionalized.

As to why the myth of Damo was spread, that ties into the use of the Martial Arts as a transmission method for the spread of Buddism.

- Matt

- Matt

 

Actually, its widely recognised that forms of Chinese Boxing existed long before the development of Shaolin-Kung fu. Shaolin just served as a stabaliser. All the other styles that existed were scattered, and disorganised. Shaolin wsa the first "school" of Martial Arts.

I personally study Martial Arts because I seek enlightenment. Yes, Martial Arts have a combative side to them. However, there are Martial Arts that are more open than others.
Ring arts, such as Muay Thai focus completely on physical training. However traditional Martial Arts also have a spiritual side to them. If Martial Arts have always been for "whooping" (i hate that term), then why do the most ancient systems of Martial Arts embody a spiritual side?

 

Enlightenment? Shove <no need to get that heated up>!

I agree with you 100%. There's nothing remotely spiritual about copping a Gyaku zuki in the face. I nearly puked when my sensei told me that after 3rd dan in Shotokan you don't fight any more at gradings, you do stuff like writing thesis, demonstrating etiquette, all that malarkey. Anyone who thinks it's about enlightenment, spirituality or 'finding out who you really are' will end up lying sprawled askew on a mat groaning in agony. Face it general public, MA are about kicking ass. Sure, you have to improve your mind as well as your body if you want to be a good fighter, but that's a different thing entirely from 'enlightenment.'

 

Why? I don't believe in it. I was explaining why that isn't enlightenment, not saying that enlightenment existed.

I would like to see a good definition of "enlightenment", too.

Mongoose, I don't know if that was serious, but that story is ridiculous.

Proof?

It's not our job to back up your claims...

I take pride in my own accomplishments, not in carrying on traditions that I don't believe in from a culture that I don't belong to.

The only reason some people have said they do MA to "whoop ass" is because the first post asks if you do MA for "enlightenment" or to "whoop ass". Those are the choices. I'm sure there is more to why people train than just simply "whooping ass".

Also, "enlightenment" is an idea that (I think) comes from Buddhism (may be wrong though). I don't see how you can study an art for a benefit you don't believe in, and I doubt every single person who said they did MA for enlightenment is a Buddhist.

 

i feel if one truly desires to reach the full limitlessness of their potential then they must attain a full spectrum of martial knowledge that includes healing, medicine, philosophy, spiritual needs and combat.


some people desire to be soldiers or warriors, some people who desire those things have different ideas about what that means to them individually. a warrior isn't some who is embolden by pure violent bliss of combat. to me it is someone who is cautious about fighting because they know the reality of it. Myamoto Musashi has described the way of the warrior as reaching a point of spiritual contentment and enlightenment, emptiness, where only the good remains.


it's definitely an aspect of martial arts, but wether you chose to accept it and embrace it is in much of the same line as to what art or style you practice. some people don't want enlightenment.

what are you seeking? if its combat, i think thats easy to find. how hard is it to get in a brawl with someone? but ultimately what will that bring?

i search particularly for something that is a little more fruitful than external strenght. every fighter reaches a prime and a decline, but i believe internal strength is ever flourishing and that once tapped you can do great things, sometimes even greater things with age than you can in youth.

i attest Guro Dan Inosanto, Ajarn Chi and Punong Guro Trigg to this. all those men are nearly incomparable in their realm. Last summer I saw Ajarn display greater speed in his 50's than any one of our 20 something fight team players. He sparred one guy who thought he was rather tough and ajarn rendered the man useless in seconds. then the tough guy says "well if i had a knife..." so what does Ajarn do? he gives him a choice of practice knife weaponry and again disables the guy in seconds. then he tells us all how he doesn't really know "anything" about knives and shouldn't be doing this witht he most humble attitude ever demonstrated. that lead into a great point; he said "You never know who you are going to meet." and he went on to say later in life you should consider the spirit before you consider fighting.

is this what people want? no wonder people in the community fear martial arts schools, if all we create are thuggish brawler types and that's all we have to offer no wonder it looks like a troubled street to most people.

after two plus years of switching from a school of bullies to where i am at now, daily studying of the Tao, Tai Chi, and the external arts with people of quality, of the same integrity i desire to be I can tell you i'm much more improved in the ring and out. my attitude and direction is clearer, i have more hope, and my martial skill has come up i'd say about 10 fold from where it was in terms of power generation and flow.


lastly, damn do i have to be the long winded sort, my teacher told this to me years ago and i'm just now starting to be able to put it into practice and see its truth.



"gentleness prevails over strength, weakness concurs. Become the calm and restful breeze that tower the violent seas."

now i like to say that to myself everytime before i start rolling in BJJ. its amazing how affective it is to let the other guy fight and put his strength out there as he tries to grab onto you. its like if you threw a 50 lb 4x4 at someone, how easy would it be to deflect or dodge? but if you threw a 50lb chain around someone how much effort would be needed to remove it.


imho, there's definitely some elightenment involved or you're not studying a real martial art.

 

This may well be one of the most close-minded posted I have ever read. Just because someone trains in a Martial Art to help themselves on a path to enlightenment, it doesnt mean that they train at a level less than that of someone who wants to "kick ass". I could take your statement to mean that anyone who believes that Martial Arts can be used to reach enlightenment are unskilled fighters. I hope this isnt what you mean.

 

I amost agree with this. There are however some outlyers. Perhaps the two most obvious are Judo and Aikido. Yes pain is a function of the systems practice. However at the core of the arts is the idea of not hurting your opponent.

They are outliers however and their developmental history is different from most other arts.

- Matt

 

Matt, aikido and judo still stemmed from trad ('koryu') JJ, which were designed to inflict pain. Unless I am mistaken, many of the judo and aikido techniques are exactly the same as the old JJ ones. The founders may have developed the art for a different purpose, but the techniques etc still have one purpose- fighting.

 

Which is good and you need to have that choice. That doesn't negate it as a choice other will take.

But as pointed out (as I'm sure you would), the continuation of cultural practices doesn't have anything more to do with enlightenment than fighting does. Possibly less in fact.

- Matt

 

Thanks Matt,

To come full circle, it's still true that many traditional chinese martial arts have incorporated internal training, qi cultivation etc. into their training for a long time. It's a good thing to question traditional methods and not take them for granted, but also it's a good thing to question why so many who started down this path stuck with it? I can only throw in my own experience that I find it beneficial to my training.
Enlightenment vs whooping ass: I would like to be able to successfully defend myself, however I spend so much time training I guess I'm looking for more than that, to perfect myself as a martial artist? Fortunately for me that's pretty much impossible - deep down I'm just in it for the journey.

 

Fair enough, I don't even like the term enlightenment anyway. But keeping with traditions, discipline etc. is also a useful way of instilling a sense of responsibility into MA students. You can't just take anyone in without a good class structure (which doesn't neccessarily have to mean ancient traditional structure) and teach them dangerous or even deadly moves, pride in their own abilities and send them back out onto the street. Well obviously you could, but I think there is a bigger risk of them 'whooping ass' where they really shouldn't. Incidentally, I am not implying anything about the character of any of the authors in the thread - I just think percentage wise there is a bigger risk of people acting aggresively.

 

Don't be silly, of course it's not what I mean. I don't believe that wanting to achieve enlightenment automatically means you are a crap fighter. I meant that if you go about training with detached and dreamy illusions they're going to get ripped from you very fast. There are some people around who believe that no matter how skilled someone is, if you can only align yourself with Chi/Ki/ some supernatural force, you can override it. (I was gonna insert a term of derision, but I think I will just let that speak for itself). This was the kind of person I had in mind. I'm sorry if it came out wrong.

 

LOL

You've got me there. Well done.

Enlightenment isn't a purely Buddhist concept though. After all, there is an English word describing it. Lots of traditions of one sort or another have addressed the idea. In all fairness, though, you're right that Buddhist enlightenment is a specific thing. And that I'm thinking of enlightenment in broader terms. A generalized effort to promote a sense of "wholeness" between potential and actuality. That sort of thing.


Stuart

 

Well then you wont find out then, you are self endulging yourself by false accusations and you cant be bothered to put the effort in to back up them either...

I will not waste my time on proofing something to someone who throws false accusations on a matter that is completely true...

Besides i can be doing more valuable things such as my coursework for college, than trying to prove something to a person that thinks he knows everything, because i have seen so far, is you disagreeing with everyones points of view and facts

Besides who is "Our" by the way, i was directing my post at you!

 

Then explain the force behind Tai Chi.
Until you take the time to train in these systems, you cannot say "training this way or believing this is not effective".