martial arts: search for enlightenment or learning to whoop ass!

out of another thread a discussion on whether martial arts is for the search for enllightenment or the desire to be able to whoop some ass has arisen, and so i pass it on for general debate. ready, set, go...

 

whopping ass. martial arts have always been about learning to win a physical confrontation. "enlightenment" may be a positive side effect of this, but at the base of every art is the idea of hurting someone, no matter how you try and sugar coat it.

 

There is another thread pretty much identical to this one at the bottom of the general topics page. You can view it here: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20367

 

oh dear, sorry for being repeditive! j

 

Its alright! the two threads are similar but aren't identical so your not in the wrong i was merely pointing out there is a similar thread which might have some information you might find of interest.

 

Woopen dar' ass! If you want enlightenment, go to church

 

That thread is about 'inner peace', which can be different from "enlightenment".

This is from that other thread:

That's not enlightenment. That is called being secure, confident, and relaxed. That has nothing to do with martial arts, mysticism, or any eastern beliefs.

That can be achieved through martial arts, though. Some of the most secure, confident, and relaxed people I know are people who have had full contact fights. They've faced an incredibly tough challenge and proved themselves.

Read some of the stories of people who survived horrible accidents. They've been through hell, and now many of them don't have much to fear.

This isn't enlightenment. If you face all your fears, then you won't have anything left to fear. Pretty simple.

 

I practice for fighting. Simple as that.

 

I reccomend u read the book called Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa, it has a very interesting and appealing view on this. It can be a hard book to find though.

 

Enlightenment. Martial-arts (or at least kung-fu) are about mental, physical, and spiritual intent. The fighting aspect may be important, but it's minor in comparison to the philosophy aspect.

 

I allways did MA for more enlightinment reasons (relieving strees, physical fitness and fun) but recently i disocovered th efun o fkicking ass. i was talking about martial arts to a friend and one of his friends who is a really nice guy went from zero to ass hole and started calling capoeira( whcih I practice) gay dancing and that it is about fighting with out touching each other. He was a yellow belt in ninjitsu and he decided that because capoeria is so gay he, with about 6 months of expeirience, could beat me , whith 9 months of capoeria expeirience and i am almost a green belt in wushu and jeet kune do. Because he got worked up about capoeria I dicided to show him what capoeria can do. He threw a chamber kick and I ducked under it (did na esciva for you capoeira dudes) and guarded myself when he tried to hit me on the way down. I rise up and throw this corssing crescent kick (or an kishada but i am butchering the spelling here) and I stopped the kick right next to his head. I rested my ankle on his shoulder. He ducked down, letting my foot off and he said "I am stil only a begginer."

 

where does that mindset come from? its like people cant accept that they are learning something to lay the smack down so they try and make it seem "nice" so others dont think they are a freak. why is a martial arts sytem "invented"? to maim and kill other people. usually born out of war (such as thai boxing, pugilism, ju jitsu, karate, wrestling... anything that isnt modern really) to aid a soldier who had lost his weapon, or for bodyguards, or simply to decide whos the biggest and baddest to lead the army.

modern softcocks who prattle on about spirituality and their feelings while doing a 720 back spinning ultra kick are not martial artists.

 

I do it for the fun of it -an adrenaline 'sport'. If you mean enlightenment about more effective ways of fighting, then yes I'll have some of that too.

I think that a lot of people do it for the escapism -much like watching telly except taking part. And why not.

 

I don't know if you are talking about me or the guy. If you are talking about me, you have to understand that he started the fight and he said "let me show you how capoeria doesn't wrok on the streets." and then threw a kcik at me. Because he was being a bitch about capoeria I decided to show off, because... well it was fun. After he said that it wasn't his fault he didn't get me and that as soon as he gets an orange belt he can beat me I didn't brag ( until now) and that was that. And plus, my c ock is hard!

 

Let me correct you first. Karate was not born out of war which you can find out reading reliable history books on the matter. Sorry, but I just had to say this.

Japanese martial arts lost much of their original brutal mindset during the Edo period (1603 - 1867). There are books dating back to the 17th century that clearly describe how swordmanship should be not just about killing people, but about spiritual growth also. So are those arts maybe too "modern" for you?

Old gongfu handbook Bubishi, which was used by the founders of the modern karate, also deals with spiritual growth achieved by doing martial arts.

 

lafthasum- i was talking about shaolin hendrix, not you

i assumed karate was born out of the okinawans not being allowed weapons, and developing it as a way of fighting using hands and household items such as the bo. this is just what I have been told though so its not a reliable resource. and there are more countries than japan that do martial arts.

 

I'd say it's a bit of both for me. I started learning because I wanted to be able to defend myself. It still is about that, but also there is enlightenment through that.

 

Toudi was a civil fightning method and I have not heard that it would have had a role in any war as you suggested.

I also mentioned gongfu. As you probably know it is not Japanese but Chinese.

At least Chinese and Japanese martial arts did have spiritual leanings before the advent modern martial arts so how come you say that they have now place in our way of life?

 

Okinawans learnt Karate from China. It used to be called chinese-hand, but they changed it to empty-hand as they didn't like the chinese reference.
Things like the bo and 3 section staff came from farming tools.

I agree that a lot martial arts come from war, or fighting of some kinds, but shaolin kungfu came from what initially was meditation and exercise for the monks.

I don't think that from practising any martial art you will become enlightened, it all depends on your view on the martial art. There are other ways to find enlightenment, but all martial arts have been designed as a way of fighting.

 

This relates to a point I've made before:

MA is not mystical, philosophical, or a religion. Martial arts are supposed to be 'martial', as in combative, though that can also mean (Chilu will remember this debate ) combat-derived. The pseudo-mysticism usually (not always, I'm generalising) comes from a misinterpretation - or worse, exploitation - of the East's reputation for 'spiritual enlightenment'. In some styles, there were culturally engendered philosophical aspects, but this was to do with culture not the MA itself. Once that MA is removed from its culture, it also loses the philosophical/spiritual/religious etc context.

Of course, if you happen to be a Buddhist and you study a very traditional form of Shaolin derived kung fu, or traditional muay thai, then you can bring your Buddhism to that style. Its an external aspect, however, not something that needs to be inherent in MA. Philosophy, spiritualism and religion all have a place, and thats outside the martial arts class - the martial arts class is for training either combat skills, for a sport (such as judo, MMA, TKD, boxing, kickboxing), or for the 'art' aspect (like in most capoeira, wushu etc schools).

If you want philosophy, read a book, take some courses. Don't take MA.