Martial Arts misconceptions

At the risk of sounding more naive than I am :thinking:

I have been told some things in martial arts that have an almost completely different meaning as it turns out. Here are a few examples:

1. Maintain constant forward pressure. This is something I don't think the WC folks will agree with me on the real meaning.
What did I think it meant: weight forward, move forward and attack
What did it really mean: move in ANY direction necessary, but be able to change direction at any time to attack forward (or any other direction)
Reality of combat: Distance closes, then you have separation, then closing. You cannot eliminate separation unless you hit a wall or reach the edge of a cliff.

2. Wait until the last possible moment to move. This one recently got me thinking how confusing it is to say to other forum members.
What did I think it meant: Be patient, draw the enemy in until they are committed and open to counter attack
What did it really mean: Be brave, learn to use the minimum movement necessary and at the last possible moment (there is no waiting, the moment could be to strike first)
Reality of combat: Moving less than half the width of your body can cause most attacks on you to miss while affording you opportunity to attack.

3. One step sparring is to develop timing because it gives the student time to react. This is mouthful, but common statement.
What did I think it meant: Uke takes one step and attacks. Tori defends and counters.
What did it really mean: Developing timing is VERY important. When uke steps, that is the attack step. Focus on space and timing.
Reality of combat: Maintaining distance in combat is near impossible unless the enemy is immobilized or chooses to stay away. Enemy can always move forward faster than you can run backwards or sideways. The one step exercises become no step in reality as the step is part of the attack.

 

You rang??

There's a difference between constant pressure and constant forward pressure.

Constant pressure means you're always leading the action. You're attacking, you're countering on your terms, even your defence puts your opponent off beat.

Constant forward pressure in any style has much more to do with footwork (where the weight sits depends on which style you're using). With constant forward pressure you're constantly attacking while moving forward. This means you'll end up almost always stepping straight down the center or angling off so you can press forward. You step back very infrequently and even then only to reposition to press forward again. You stop and create any break in the pressure and you die.

Hope that helps clear that up. I'll let some of the others tackle the other points.

 

What you wrote makes sense. I don't use these terms the same anymore. I was just stating what it was called when told to me, what I first thought it meant, and then what I figured out is probably really meant.

"Constant forward pressure" as a term I don't use anymore. I use "have the ability to change direction at any time and attack"

"Constant pressure" as a term, I use exclusively to mean applying pressure constantly. Pressure is increased when the area is decreased. So if I apply pressure in boxing, my pressure is directed at a specific small area making the opponent react to the pressure. In BJJ, that pressure is done with actual contact to a specific area rather than spreading my weight out.

The idea of constant pressure as in attacking, I use "attack at all times" and "attack and defense are one" depending on the context.

 

Ha ha. a very win chung comment? do you think you might be accused of overly straight line thinking? Could things seam different if looked at from another angle?

Your statement above is true if you just are attacking in a straight line but not if you are attacking in a straight line combined with a circular stepping movement, thus creating a spiral.

Again True if you just are attacking in a straight line because it is the pressure that is stopping the other guy from hitting you but not if you are attacking in a straight line combined with a circular stepping movement, thus creating a spiral, because then it is your relative position that stops the guy from hitting you.

 

If you're attacking down the centre you'll either be successful and drive the opponent back in which case you press forward and angle to cut off their attempts to angle off defensively/offensively
OR you meet sufficient resistance you have to take an angle so you can press forward from a position better for you and worse for them
OR they press forward hard enough you have to move back to accommodate while angling so you take a better angle to press forward

And it's not just constant attack stopping them from hitting you. All that does is create pressure, occupy a line, and force them to respond. It's the hand techniques + body position + occupying the centre line which make it hard for them to attack.

 

My point was that one does not have to attack down the opponents center.

 

I never said that it was an absolute requirement for wing chun or for any other style.

 

I never said that you said that that it was an absolute requirement for wing chun or for any other style.

I merely suggested that you might possibly be betraying bias toward straight line pressure that is common among win chungers. At the time I was thinking of baug wa - which is to spirals what win chung is to straight lines. But I found a very nice example of how to win by not applying pressure and not striking up the line in CLF.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8yUMb5n1i0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8yUMb5n1i0[/ame]



and here is an example of it being applied for real - backing off not applying forward pressure not attacking down the mid-line and winning.



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBqujD0xmXE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBqujD0xmXE[/ame]

 

Those three avenues of entry are not just for wing chun but many other striking arts. I think you're confusing the linear hand techniques of wing chun with angles of entry for the body and specificity of footwork (straight stepping vs pivoting).

Your point? We were talking about forward pressure.

Two of the three angles of entry are not down the opponent's centerline Tom.

 

1. Maintain constant forward pressure.

I prefer to call this:

If you

- punch me, I'll run you down.
- kick me, I'll run you down.
- do nothing, I'll still run you down.

IMO, this is a very high level skill for all MA systems.

2. Wait until the last possible moment to move.

This violate the general CMA rule, "If you intend to move, I'll move first ...".

3. One step sparring is to develop timing because it gives the student time to react.

This is only the beginner level training. The more advance level training should be:

- I attack,
- you respond,
- I take advantage on you respond, and then
- ...

 

Thanks for the contributions to this thread.

I was hoping to stick to the format:

X = A statement you were told (e.g. a principle or concept)
Y = What you thought at first it meant
Z = What you think it means now (if Z different from Y)
And any particular reasons why your opinion changed. This does not mean that Y is incorrect, only that your views changed to Z.

For example:
1) In Goju-ryu Karate I was told that go was hard and ju was soft.
2) I was told and first thought that the soft was circular motion and the hard was linear.
3) I was told by Chinen Sensei that it meant, use a hard weapon on a soft target and use a soft weapon on a hard target.

I believe #3 to be the more true meaning. Also because from Bagua I was told that all movements are circular, there are just some circles that are more oblong. What we call linear is really a very oblong or flat circle. This does not make #2 untrue, but I think #3 is more meaningful and practical.

 

Does it actually violate the rule? I think it actually makes the rule to move first work. When you move at the last possible moment to strike first, there is no time for the enemy to make adjustments or defend.

If you move too early, you are giving up the initiative because the enemy can make adjustments now that they know your intent. If you move too late, you get caught asleep. The last possible moment is usually at the beginning or the end of the enemy movements, when the enemy has almost no ability to change direction mentally or physically. Beginning of movement is when the mind is first committed to the movement (one-track minded). End of the movement is after the halfway point, near the end, when the enemy is fully committed.

 

You may look at this issue from 2 different angles.

1. If you wait until your opponent's has already generated his speed and power, it may be too hard to stop him. For example, when you detect that your opponent intends to punch you with his right hand, a 4 oz push on his right shoulder may be enough to stop his right punch power generation. In order to do this, your hands has to be close to his shoulder to start with. That means your hands should already be in your opponent's territory (your hands are near your opponent's face).

2. If you want to borrow your opponent's force, you may want to wait until he has committed on his force 100%. Again, you may have to take more risk because you may have to fight in your own territory (your opponent's hands are near your face). For example, if you wait for the last moment to pull your leading leg back when your opponent shoots at your leading leg, you may let him to kiss the dirt.

I like the 1st approach better. To prevent a problem from happening is easier than to let the problem to happen and then try to fix it. If I have to deal with a striker, I want to wrap his arms ASAP so I don't have to worry about his punches. I'm not going to wait for his fist to fly toward my face.

 

Yeah I agree, but isn't this exactly the reason why how we interpret the words makes a difference? Look at it this way.

If you wait until the last possible moment to move, then you know that to stop the opponent's shoulder, your hand already needs to be near it. So I learn where my hands and body need to be to be able to move at the last possible moment and not get hit.

YKW, the "wait until the last possible moment to move" is one of the interpretations of the "minimum movement and maximum mobility" principle. It is a way to force your technique to be efficient, not waist movement, and to explode from zero 100% in an instant.

You have already described the situation in your #1 example. You describe moving only a few inches to push the shoulder because your hand is already near their shoulder. In order to wait until the last possible moment to move and not get hit, all your movements need to be efficient and small.

Hence the term "overreact" is when someone makes movements bigger than they need or should be.

 

We were talking about martial arts misconceptions and the idea that one should Maintain forward pressure in a fight.


My point is that it is not necessary to maintain forward pressure to win a fight. In fact the guy in the video looses because he commits himself to applying forward pressure. The defender realizes this and retreats applying sideways pressure, scoring the hit.

If we are talking about correcting misconceptions about fighting it might be better to say that it is necessary to learn how to apply forward pressure and how to deal with it however it is not necessary to maintain forward pressure to win.

 

For match fighting, no. For self defence, yes. If you actually have to engage someone it's because you can't diffuse or escape the situation which means the only way out is through your adversary and backing up is not an option.

 

You talk as if the appropriate level of force is a constant :thinking:

 

I said nothing about the level of force to be used.

 

love how 17 seconds in, dude breaks into his crazy stance. like "you better back off because i'm about to jcvd you".

 

Sifu Ben did cover "Constant forward pressure" as having more to do with footwork. The MISCONCEPTION, IMHO, is that you must always move forward. I think the real meaning is that when you attack, you are moving forward (e.g. getting your body behind the strike).

Here is an example, this guy is not striking while moving backwards. He is getting weight forward with his strikes, even though he is mostly back peddling when not striking. This has to do with footwork.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8_zWBQXZj4"]Turkish Badass Fights Off Multiple Attackers - YouTube[/ame]