"Martial arts has changed more in the last 20 years than the 2000 years before it"

Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by Christianson, Jun 29, 2014.

  1. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    you are right to question guys expereince, but let me help you out here,

    YKW is john S wang
    john S. Wang, disciple of the grand master Chang, Dong Sheng (the Chinese wrestling king), has forty years of martial arts experience and has won competitions in the United States and China, including three time United States heavy weight champion in Shuai Chiao (1982, 1983, 1984). Mr. Wang has taken the first US Shuai-Chiao teams to compete in Taiwan (1984) and Mainland China (1985). He has been teaching in Austin since 1972 and serves on the board of directors for the American Combat Shuai Chiao Association.
    Johns teacher won the All China Full Contact Tournament twice, defeating all comers from all styles. He also fought the Mongolian champion, Kuli. Their bout was filled with high-flying throws, all of which were issued by Ch'ang.

    His teacher was a wrestling legend who learned striking arts from the best teachers in all of china and indeed made his own form of tai chi up, John was his student who ansered the challenges that came to his school, so was cross training long before you or I was born
    He is also a student of a long fist master (Chinese boxing) with I believe over 60 years of experience in that art

    Id suggest he has a little bit of knowdlege and when he makes these statements speaks from an expoereince you, nor I can ever hope to have lol
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2015
  2. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    War. War never changes.
  3. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Awesome post Ice man, I think that just backs up what I was trying to say. Very good history lesson there.
  4. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I think you might be taking the whole thing a bit too literally. Statements like "MMA changed the arts" aren't expected to be absolutist by any developed reader. It describes a trend. Not case-by-case bases. So, while you may well have been studying that combination back then, when you look at larger trends, MMA has indeed changed things. You can always find examples, but statements like this are about scale.
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    There is a difference between being a well rounded fighter and being an x fighter who also does y I think. You are right, being well rounded is not new, but MMA has done a lot for martial arts since it's popularity surge. No more/ a lot less "fakes" and chi blasters. No more avoiding challenges from other schools. Full contact fighting has brought martial arts full circle, from being used for self defence and warfare, to being a sport, to chi blasting, to being useless/over exaggerated skills, to being absolutely useless in a fight (looking at McDojos and dodgy arts), going back to the UFC, and now Gracie combatives in the Army.
  6. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    I certainly see and believe that "MMA" has contributed greatly to the MArtial Arts world no doubt, mainly here in America and certainly it has brought MA into homes and places that MA couldnt go before. Although I realize this is my own opnion and thit it is certainly quit possible that Its completely wrong due to a lack of "facts" or experience or knowledge Im still going to stick with it again based on what I know and see.
    We all know there were lots of mixed systems before "MMA" at least we know that if we have done our home work and really been around. What wasnt around was the Ufc, and just like alot of people say even the UFC has changed in the past 20 years...Hmmmm....Very intresting from my perception.
    Im not knocking MMA in fact I love it but I cant allow myself to throw away what I have seen and done in my life time just because other people didnt see it or do it too.
  7. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I also think the internet has helped to destroy myths too.
  8. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    No dude it has made it more popular and given it more publicity. Other people were already doing just that sort of thing, given they were still wearing Gis and such but honestly real martial artists always scorned che blasters and bad technique.
  9. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    OK I want to add to my last post so I can make something clear. I totally appluaud the UFC and MMA for what they have done for the martial arts community in most ways (not all). Yes mma comp did provide a good model for everyone who had never been exposed to real martial arts combat.
    When I was Kid I got lucky and all the dudes I trained with were tournament Karate haters and fist fight lovers lols. We tried and tried and tried and hoped and hoped and hoped for something to happen that would make point fighters shut up...The ansewer maostly was the UFC here in america, but look at how long it took for the ufc to adapt. I hope this makes you think about attitude and charicter because Ive had alot of both during my martial arts career lols, even had a mohawk when I was a teen ager and isnt this funny my first tatoo was a homemade job and it said Kenpo lmao wow ahead of my time or what Bro.
  10. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Fair enough
    Which is a huge change. The mistake I think you're making is in equating MMA solely with the mixing of styles. We all know there was mixing prior to that. JKD was mixed. Lots of FMA styles were mixed. Kajukenbo. Countless other examples.

    But that doesn't really encapsulate what MMA has done, does it? MMA has provided an environment for testing and an audience. It has raised public awareness of one facet of martial arts. It has prompted many longtime practitioners to question sacred cows they used to take for granted (myself included). It's also created a new population of wannabes, created new avenues of business (with all the good and bad that brings), etc.

    Uh huh
    How, precisely, are you being asked to throw anything away? What in all of this discussion suggests, for one moment, that anyone is disputing your personal experience?

    This isn't about you. It's about the larger trends. Where you seem to be pushing for a laser-like focus on your personal training history.
  11. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    LOls yea your right. Sorry for comeing across like that, its pretty diim of me to do that.
  12. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Anybody else see John's Wang in that?
  13. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Sometimes I take the whole thing a little personally and Its about my own weird not anyone elses. Im actually pretty anti establishment and that goes for the UFC and most pop culture trends lols, hey I am trying to change and go with the heard but its going to take time. Im serious about being a tatooed mowhak weilding teen that did hybrid MA years ago. Back then you were a freeak, now its what your supposed to do...Idk wasted youth perhaps.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2015
  14. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    lol i actually disagree with john on a fair bit, especially on his use of the rhino hands and headlock throws in submission grappling lol But the simple fact is agree or disagree with him his experience is hard to match and i find it funny when someone questions said experience simply because he doesnt agree with his point
    the same poster has hinted at his expereince being greater than others that have disagreed with him in the past, so i thought using johns past to show him how wrong he was might finally work lol
  15. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Post of the thread by far :)
  16. Guitar Nado

    Guitar Nado Valued Member

    I have learned a lot from some of YKW (John)'s posts. Every now and then he posts something I have to think about a bit, then think about some more, and eventually I end up getting something useful (to me) out of it. Haven't seen anything from him here for a few months, hope all is well.
  17. Indie12

    Indie12 Valued Member

    I'd definitely agree with that assessment. MMA has brought alot more changes to Martial Arts in the last 30 years (particularly from 93-current) then in any time in the past 2,000 years.

    Ironically, MMA isn't new either (well the name is) if you look at systems pre-dating the 1960's, you have Greek Pankratation, Kajukenbo, Krav Maga, etc...
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't believe that.

    What evidence are you basing that on?

    Martial arts probably changed more in the last 30 years than the preceding 30 years , I'll give you that.

    But two millenia? That's a lot of research into very nebulous periods and places.

    It's a cute soundbite, but I don't see how anyone could seriously assert that as fact.
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    What I think MMA has done is two things: 1) popularized martial arts more than any time in past history and in effect brought amazing martial arts competition to the masses ( you can measure that in terms of $$$...without a doubt MMA has made more money from martial arts than anything else in history I can think of) and 2) lowered barriers for "entry level" martial arts by providing a relatively quick and inexpensive way to progress core skills quickly. That doesn't in my opinion invalidate or prove anything about older arts other than that in a way the traditional arts prior to 1990 were sort of "gourmet" while MMA etc post 1990 are "made to order". So now today we have the best of two worlds, we can dedicated a lifetime of study in a traditional art like in the olden days, but also jump right to "business" with MMA. Still, MMA is missing a whole lot in terms of what many traditional arts offer, so as a whole it's not a replacement, more like a distillation. To think MMA could replace the older, time-tested arts is kind of missing the point. Anything stripped down to its bare essentials is going to be "more efficient" or expedient...but it will still be relatively shallow. If you want efficient fighting skills, learn boxing or MMA for sure. If you want richer depth of experience, study an older art. My time studying traditional arts taught me quite a lot more than just how to punch and kick. So there is much traditional arts have to offer MMA will never bother with, but if that's what you want, hey everybody wins.

    I don't think MMA has "changed" martial arts a lot, really, except to provide new outlets for practice and some new venues for competition, but those also existed prior to MMA and UFC. But a punch, kick, choke... worked the same 2000 years ago, humans have not physically evolved in that time. The same stuffs works today as back then. People cross trained in many arts back then, and if they truly needed to use martial arts (no matter where) if they did not train effectively they probably died when they tried to use them.

    What I think MMA really changed was how martial arts are viewed by outsiders. Things are more objective now. It's far harder for martial artists to hide/lie/cheat/steal than ever before because people's perspectives were altered by MMA. I remember watching early Ultimate championships wondering "which style will win" and eventually that changed to "wow no one style is truly king", especially when Brazilian ground fighting's weaknesses became clear as the striking artists began to protect themselves better from it (but again...nothing "new" under the sun).

    To argue fighting has changed because of UFC/MMA is almost like arguing HBO and Showtime changed boxing. Not quite, but you can definitely argue HBO and Showtime encourages and definitely helps market the sport. In the same way UFC/MMA is sort of keeping martial arts alive by "keeping it real", as opposed to constantly changing it. This is why I have a hard time accepting old-school martial artists putting MMA/UFC down as "sport". If anything it's just "the sport of martial arts" at its best.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Do you think MMA has brought MA into the limelight more than the 70's Kung Fu craze?

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