"Martial arts has changed more in the last 20 years than the 2000 years before it"

Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by Christianson, Jun 29, 2014.

  1. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    1) In the ring I would be fighting a trained fighter, in the street I am not.
    2) The object of fighting is to win the match by scoring more points on the judges score card. In the street you win by creating the opportunity to escape. If I kick you in the bollocks and run away in the ring I get DQ'd, in the street if I kick you in the bollocks and run away I have achieved my objective.
    3) in the street I can use brain engagement and pre-emptive striking, in the ring I cannot.
    4) In the ring certain techniques and certain areas of the body are banned, in the street they are not.
    Like who?

    Geoff Thompson, ex bouncer and world renowned self protection expert only ever used two techniques, one punch and one kick. he states in his books that he has seen people on the floor "tearing the guy a new a**hole, only to get stabbed by his mates". In SD you need to learn how to get back to your feet as quickly as possible, BJJ does not teach you that, it teaches you to roll around on the floor looking for a heel hook or a triangle.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I have quite a collection of old turn-of-the-century martial arts, wrestling and physical culture books and what strikes me is that it's not that martial arts has changed in the last 20 years but that a lot of previous changes, that took arts off into abstract and self reflective directions have been undone and reverted.
    Reading many of these old books it is surprising how knowledge that seems new and fresh has merely been dormant or forgotten.
    Read Jack Dempsey's championship fighting and there's a lot of "MMA" in there.
    I've a judo book that deals with facing a savateur.
    Tell the martial artists of old that you don't grappled or only do punching and they'd laugh at you. They knew what as what.

    I also have something to say about whether an art has groundfighting in it or not.
    I think in the old days many arts neglected ground fighting because wrestling and grappling were so endemic in daily life, and the life of children, that almost everyone knew how to do it to some degree. It was just an accepted part of life that would have been stupid to include because not knowing it would be almost akin to not knowing how to walk.
    I believe one reason Karate lost much of its grappling is because when it moved to Japan all the early pioneers were Judo BB's and so knowing how to fall, throw, grip and roughhouse was just a given foundation. It'd be like teaching your grandmother to suck eggs as they say.
    Older warrior cultures would be no different. Sword arts don't include grappling because grappling is what you learnt as a kid. It didn't need to be "formally" included. IMHO of course.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Standing up "in base" is pretty much one of the first lessons in BJJ (and should be a constant habit).
    Don't mistake two skilled people going counter for counter as how BJJ would be expressed in a real fight.
    In the same way boxers in real fights don't go 12 rounds but seek a finish or decisive technique ASAP.
    There are problems with the BJJ approach to SD though. :)
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

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  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah sure. Perhaps I stated it too strongly. But I think to look down on a sword art because it doesn't include grappling at BJJ level is losing sight of how prominent grappling has been in the past and how people groomed to be "soldiers" from an early age would be grappling from day 1.
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I wasn't saying you were wrong, in fact I completely agree with you. I can't think of a country that didn't have some form of folk wrestling that most boys would have participated in.
  7. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I think you're right about most of it. The only argument I have is with your second point. I personally always fight to finish. You will find that anybody who competes at the lower levels will fight to finish.and your last point about BJJ not for standing up. The self defence aspect is pretty much all about standing up.
  8. Christianson

    Christianson Valued Member

    I've heard people argue this extends to koryu jujutsu in general -- that the reason that there is no sparring component in traditional koryu schools is because everyone would have been doing sumo and getting their resisting opponent experience there. The most explicit practice of this I know is in the branch of Araki-ryu overseen by Ellis Amdur, who insists that students have a minimum of six months of grappling experience -- and that they continue that grappling training -- before he will take them on as students in Araki-ryu.
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    from what ive heard, as well as sumo/sumai, different ryu also did randori, but after judo became popular, and took over the randori scene, the koryu folk concentrated on kata transmission instead.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  10. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Some did, some didn't. It really depends upon the ryūha we're talking about. There are no absolutes in koryū. I know several that still do.
  11. matveimediaarts

    matveimediaarts Underappreciated genius

    Free sparring with bokken is reserved for high-ranking students nowadays. Lower ranks do controlled sparring and drills. IDK the history of the sporty Kendo stuff, but I understand that to be relatively new and strictly for sport. Shinkendo sparring uses a more traditional style of bokken (not much more than a heavy stick with a tsuba) and no one wears armor.
  12. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Was in the royal armouries library.
    reading books on weapons combat, apparently wrestling was the practiced by boys across britain.

    later archery.

    i maybe contradicting an earlier post i have made (hey, everyone grows and learns) but martial arts extends way beyond unarmed combat and the past 20 years haven't been as revolutionary in war as the past 2000 were.

    we saw the rise and fall of dynasties from africa to europe to china to hawaii.
    that was all because of changes in martial arts (warfare tactics).
  13. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I would argue that is exactly why there has been the greatest change in the past 50-60 years. With the advent of the atomic bomb, MAD has greatly changed the way developed nations conflict with each other. Martial arts extends way beyond ground troops as well, or even pilots. Sun Tzu said war is of vital importance to the state and a military technological change which alters the way nations deal with one another is one of the biggest changes in state to state military interaction.
  14. Christianson

    Christianson Valued Member

    I think Chadderz is referring to a separate practice. Taryu jiai were actual duels fought between members of different schools, fought for the purpose of establishing martial skill rather than for honour etc. While serious injury or death of your opponent wasn't the intended outcome of the fight, neither were they seen as undesirable. As such, it fills a very different place in development than sparring. It was a test, rather than a training method. Perhaps the closest modern equivalent would be the difference between sparring and matches in boxing.

    Just like Kogusoku said above regarding randori -- and as is almost always the case with koryu bujutsu -- the practice of taryu jiai varied school by school. My school relied on it quite heavily, and was one of the last to give it up; others claim never to have practiced it (and take great pride in such).
  15. Christianson

    Christianson Valued Member

    Having said that, there are some interesting parallels between MAD and military thought immediately prior to WWI. Both the Germans and the French were preceding on the assumption that the industrial-level death enable by modern weaponry and the massive interdependence of economies at the time meant that no European nation could endure a war. Which eventually led both sides to develop strategies that rested on the assumption that since they weren't sissies, they could certainly last longer than the other side.... Both sides were convinced that they would easily win WWI within 6 weeks on the basis of that thinking, which then meant that they were both spoiling for the fight. A very comparable situation, I think, to the Bay of Pigs, with only the fact that the Soviets backed down resulting in the difference.
  16. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Let's not forget, the past 20 years have given us the greatest revolution in martial arts EVER...




  17. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Warfare is changing all the time, however the original statement was meant to describe hand to hand combat.
  18. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Question: How much is hand to hand combat in modern warfare?
  19. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Almost non-exist. They basically teach Gracie Combatives and how to kill with a lance.
  20. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Bro your right and your wrong, boxers and wrestlers have been dabbleing in multiple arts and systems for thousands of years, Im not suggesting that "MMA" hasnt promoted tons of cross training mind you Im just trying to tell you that its not just in the last 20 or 30 years that this has been happening.
    Frankly I always wonder just how much martial arts experience some guys have when they make such grand statements about how "MMA" changed the arts lols, I was a ten year old kid studying a Judo Kick boxing mix taught by a forigner in the midwest, I mean get real, there isnt a thing new about this other than the quality of athlete and the amount of exposure "MMA" events get. P.S. I love watching MMA

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