Martial Arts Cults

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Polar Bear, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5hYsMcJM68"]Martial Arts Cults - YouTube[/ame]

    Here is an interesting thing on martial arts cults.

    I've seen alot of this over my years and given on long recent long running discussion which discussed this in one instance. I thought it would be good to have a thread on why martial arts cult are created and what the danger signs are.

    The first point in this video is one of the biggest. The master that nobody has met and who is invincible. You have no idea how many times I've encountered this. I once even trained with a guy who believe he was the reincarnation of Morihei Ueshiba. He was annoyed when I pointed out that he was born before Ueshiba died.

    The second biggy for me is. "You cannot show anyone anything that you do" The training is either secret or you aren't qualified to show anything to anyone. If you have a brain and have learned something sufficiently well to perform it. You only truly understand it when you can explain it and show it to another. Anyone stopping you showing anything is just trying to control the group.

    So lets hear your own experiences.

    The Bear.
     
  2. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Sorry, read it wrong.....
     
  3. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyV-06JONjw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyV-06JONjw[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtEsSCe_Fas"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtEsSCe_Fas[/ame]
     
  5. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    In light of the other thread, I'm going to try to comment seriously on this. :p

    Depending on how you define "cult", many martial arts groups including the speaker's group too above can fall into the category. At the least, they can display cultish traits and behavior.

    For example, if he is saying a cult is a group of people who organize around a strong authority figure, then that could easily be a "Coach" as well as a "Sensei".

    However, the real question for me is do the groups or people involved display destructive behavior?

    There are certainly more questions but some are:

    Do they use influence techniques and deception to try to get control over members?
    Do they use group dynamics to influence self-esteem (usually try to lower it)?
    Do they try to restrict members sleep and diet?
    Do they try to isolate members from family and friends?
    Do they try to dramatically change member's beliefs or values in a short period of time?
    Do they try to change (or replace) a person's identity with another?
     
  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    To be honest, Bear, while I do agree that there are martial cults out there, and that they should be recognized and avoided, Matts' comments show me a real lack of understanding of both traditional martial arts (and the reasons they are set up the way they are) and of cults, so I'd personally disregard his take on things here.

    In essence, he claims that "the vast majority of martial arts that I (Matt Thornton) see, specifically Asian martial arts, are very much like cults". He then identifies three key aspects that demonstrate that they are, namely:
    - Claiming knowledge from a higher source
    - Usage of ritual
    - Usage of in-house terminology

    Let's look at his examples of each for his construct of "the vast majority of martial arts... are very much like cults" (but not in a 'healthy' way?!?!).

    When it comes to claiming knowledge from a "higher source", Matt discusses the idea of the information/knowledge coming from a "master"... er, you mean like an instructor, Matt? Yes, the martial art lessons come from someone higher up than yourself... that's kinda the way these things work. So why is Matt railing against this? Well, because this little ill-informed rant of his comes directly from him being asked about the set-up of his gym, in which everyone trains together, without worrying about rank, with a coach, then below them, athletes, and this is a way to demonstrate that Matt's way is "better" than a more traditional form. To be blunt, this type of skewing of reality is actually the most indicative action of a cult leader in the entire clip... and it comes directly from Matt himself. Hmm. But besides that, is Matt not aware of the large number of Chinese systems, as well as some Japanese ones I'm aware of, that share this idea of "everyone is the same rank"?

    Second, he talks about rituals... and here, he talks about the idea of forms training (kata, poomse, hyung etc), and lining up "militaristic style" (wow, you mean that in a martial form of training, something comparable to a military form is a bad thing?) being rituals to "keep(s) people busy, so they don't ever realize that what they're learning doesn't work". Thing is, from all of Matt's writings and videos that I've seen, I don't think he has ever shown any understanding of what such methods are designed to teach. He simply dismisses them as they don't fit his idea of "functional, alive training", mainly as he just doesn't understand them, nor is willing to take the time to get some understanding.

    There are reasons for training being done with forms. It is not because they "replicate a real fight", and are therefore immediately applicable to a combative use, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a reason. Additionally, they simply aren't a ritual... they are a training device. So Matts' out in his estimation there as well (for the record, "lining up militaristic style" also isn't a ritual... it's a convention. But I don't think Matt really gets much of what he's talking about here). There are plenty of rituals around, and I'd be very willing to bet that there are quite a few in Matts approach, there certainly are in MMA in general, so the idea of there being rituals making something a cult? No, not at all. Rituals can help indoctrinate cult members, but rituals don't make something a cult... and Matt has shown no real grasp of what a ritual is.

    Usage of a common language, within a context, well, that's just an insane one to bring up. We could look at Matts use of the term "aliveness" in his training... that's a pretty good example of a particular common language that all of his followers use, thinking it separates them out from others (actually, that's a pretty good defining aspect of a cult, it develops an "us and them" mentality, which is exactly what Matt's doing here and elsewhere... hmm...), but when it gets down to it, having a common language in a learning environment simply makes learning faster and more streamlined. You don't have to say "left leg lead posture, step through with your right leg and punch to the face with a right twisting straight punch, ensuring to use your lead two knuckles, and pull your left hand back to your hip" when you can just say "Oitsuki" (or "lunge punch", depending on the school).

    In short, yes, martial cults exist, but Matt's take on things is far from accurate, or informed, and, when looked at a little more clinically, the group that best fits the idea of "cult" in this clip is Matt and his followers himself.

    Just something to be aware of.
     
  7. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    He seems to be creating a cult of "no-cult"

    On purpose? Or just showing a distinct lack of understanding?
     

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