Martial Art v.s. Martial Sport

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by American HKD, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    good point, but with that being said, is that a risk you're willing to take, i'll much rather take my chances at changing his face and his skeletal structure as opposed to his mindset or thinking process.
     
  2. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    secondly, in the UFC that isn't really an option, the whole point is to hurt the guy, thats the only point i was making was that more often than not ability is more important than courtesy. give the enemy NO advantage, make them work to survive.
     
  3. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    Good questions it depends on many factors but I mean the street not the UFC. In trad HKD we only train for the street.

    How good you are or confident?
    How serious is the threat?
    How fast you can gain control?
    How fast he realizes is he's the one who might get hurt?

    I personally would try to take in all these factors as fast as possible and decide to go for the kill, just hurt him or get away?
     
  4. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    well if there was a weapon involved certainly my first idea would be to get away. but that is another story. those are all legitimate factors to account for. the real question is
    1. will you have the time to think, contemplate and act upon the variables of those factors.
    2. given a combination of a strong sense of urgency, primal insticts and adrenaline are you even really going to contemplate these factors? now you might say something along the lines of "yes, i keep cool" but i have to say that in a real life situation when adrenaline is pumping and you are honestly and truly in fear of losing your life, the chances of you doing so are VERY slim.
     
  5. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    Never really know til it happens hopefully not, but if you train hard and in the right way the odds are way in your favor hand to hand.

    Empty against a blade, I would get out or find an equallizier any will due unless you see your chance and go for it.

    No easy answer
     
  6. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    thats why i started MA to begin with.
     
  7. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Yeh ok man, we are all masters of the Keyboard.

    I dont remember even debating anything to do with ma with you. I was telling you that you are discriminating against younger people than yourself is stupid. I dont need a 6th dan (your rank) in HKD to know that, I was taught manners when I was born.

    Get off your high horse and maybe you might get some respect from me, you started by attacking shotokan, whom I defended as your attack was the result of agesim.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2005
  8. Jungkihapkido

    Jungkihapkido New Member

    I have always believed the further along you train in MA (not MS) you see that the basic principles of generating power are the same. MA styles may focus on striking & kicking, throwing, joint locking or a combination. This is why those that train in one style for a long period(15 - 40 years) realize that the priciples are most often very close. If they are not then I would be a little leary.

    Just some thoughts.
     
  9. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    All martial arts are sports, unless practised for use on the battle field by a soldier. If someone asks what sport you do, you tell them you do martial arts. It is not some mythical magical thing that as you progress you become a better person than someone else. This isn't fudal Japan, you arent based on in life by what rank you are in martial arts, rank means absoultly nothing in my (and alot of others) book, it is based on skill.

    Martial arts doesnt take years to learn, I have not seen, in my 1.5yrs, any secret that I cant assertain, no technique that will take me 20yrs to master. The reason it takes awhile to learn to actually fight, is because its complely against what your bodies programed to do. We are designed to flail madely at our attacker and run, standing there trading blows takes alot or mental conditioning. If it took aslong as people like you believe, then why are the best martial artists in their 20s-30s? Its because its like any sport.

    If it takes you 20 ys to learn a martial art and be good enough to win with it, then I must be well ahead of the learning curve, aswell as alot or martial artist i know.
     
  10. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greetings,

    Maybe I mis-understood you before. I did admit I got caught in the moment a couple of times.

    But what I do have is the right like everyone else here or anywhere to be spoken to with manors, wheather you agree or disagree.

    Other than that respect is a 2 way street, you can have mine, now give me yours.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2005
  11. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greetings,

    Respectfully, if you don't think MA takes years to master your training with the wrong people. Why because if your teacher does'nt impress you enough with thier expertise, skill and knowledge somethings wrong.

    Example BJJ take 8-10 years to BB, Hapkido 4-5 years. To go through a system like HKD with over 1000 techs and many 100s of variations, weapons, ki developement etc. takes about 15 years to be a 4th dan which is considered in our system the lowest level of mastery.

    So I don't understand you comments at all or after just 1.5 years in the arts you just dont get it yet?
     
  12. Jungkihapkido

    Jungkihapkido New Member

    I disagree, The best martial artists are 50+ years. You may not have seen them yet but these are the people that make it look easy and effortless when dealing with an attack. The thing you need to keep in mind is that there are many different levels of learning. When you start training you learn basic movement then as you continue to learn you learn the finer points of technique that make it easy and effortless
     
  13. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    You have my respect.

    I appologise also, i got very caught in the moment, but I do love a good debate.
     
  14. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Perhaps I worded myself wrongly. When I say the "best", im takling about on a competitive level. How else are you supposed to discern skill?

    Also when I said it takes a few years to learn, I was refering to being able compete and become an effective fighter, learning the complete style would of course take years and years.
     
  15. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Debates are what we're all here for more or less, lets keep'em friendly
     
  16. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greetings,

    Most competitors are in thier 20's sometimes early 30's. That's how long the human body can handle the stress i.e. nature.

    MA goes beyond the mire physical realm just physical strenght, the seasoned Masters have way more to offer you than a 20/30 year old does. Masters know how to use very very little force and achive the same results as men in thier 20's using all thier strenght.

    I said way back in this thread expirience is one of the best teachers, age brings refinement, when the young man can compete anymore should he shoot himself because MA life is over?

    No way it's only just starting now you can focus on the perfection of the systems other higher aspects of MA it's all there, with the right teacher.

    You will no get this out of "sports systems" but they're in many trad MA systems like Hapkido.

    That in a nut shell is what young men don't see, that's inexpirience and only seeing what's aparrent right now, no insight, no time in the arts, and so on.

    Not a put down, not a high horse, just truth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2005
  17. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    See here is the problem. You are presupposing that I do not understand the different interpretations of Martial Arts. I do, however my own personal belief is different compared with yours. I do martial arts for self defence and sport, for me to compete I do not need to learn a complete style to do that. In fact, I study many techniques, from may different styles.

    My opinon is not based on the ineptitude of my youth and lack of experience, but rather from what I feel martial arts is to me.

    As far as experience is concerned, I may be young, but I have had a hell of alot of experience packed into my short and violent life.
     
  18. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    no, the best martial artists in the world and the best fighters in the world are in their 20's 30's, they are intelligent enough to retain knowladge and use it successfully. youthful enough to train relistically and efficently with a realistic goal in mind. they are not hung up on mastering their art if they feel what they know is enough to get them by.
    Randy Couture=41
    Ken Shamrock=41 {these 2 are exceptions and amazingly gifted athletes who defy all limitations.

    Chuck Liddle
    Sakuraba
    Wandy
    matt lindland
    a few of the gracies
    Frank Mir
    Tito Ortiz

    all outstanding MAists and excellent fighters.
    who are, intheir 20s and 30s.
     
  19. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greetings

    I see your points.

    Ours is from trad. MA, in that sense young or less than 10 years in a system is automatically inexpirieced. And in my world it's 100% true.

    In yours if you compete your totally in regardless

    I too do it for self defense or street, self perfection mind & body, but not sport competition.
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Sorry... I've been away for a few days... the route this thread has taken is pretty bizarre. I like a lot of the questions that have come up and hope people can get on with the difscussion and move past the nitpicking and being offended. It'd be nice to see the little annoyances dropped and the issues discussed.


    Iron_Ox: Great questions... I hope I can try to add my personal opinions on them...
    For me there are multiple levels.
    1. On the barest, most basic level is to learn good, applicable self defence that will work in whatever situation I may end up in. Within the framework of self defence, it is my goal to learn skills and techniques that I can use to defend myself and my loved ones using the most appropriate levels of force as necessary.
    1B. On that same issue, I do not learn them for competition or for showing off my skills or for employing the physical ones often. I learn the skills of avoidance and awareness to prevent having to use my physical skills. So, at my age and skill level, I do not expect that I would be overly successful in a professional fight beyond the real key philosphical point: I would survive. I don't train to win matches, I train to learn how to survive and escape... and I will use anything I need to do that (including weapons, "dirty" tactics, etc.)
    2. Beyond that, I enjoy the health and fitness that the training entails. I enjoy the people I work with and learn from/share with/teach to/spend time with in Hapkido.
    3. I also want to learn... and a traditional system like Hapkido contains so much stuff that I know I will not learn and master everything in it during the course of my life! But, I will try to teach my stduents as best I can and give them a headstart on exploring the art for the rest of their lives.

    Combat Hapkido does use "BJJ" as an add-on. While Hapkido contains a good system of ground grappling, often in schools it may get overlooked at lower levels. Also, with the popularity of the UFC and grappling schools, we feel that there is a greater chance of running into someone with decent grappling skills on the street. To reinforce what we had in Hapkido, we went to the "experts", i.e. BJJ, to help build our grappling program (people like Pedro Rodriguez and Carlson Gracie). The BJJ techniques fit very nicely within the concepts of Hapkido (and vice versa) and therefore makes for smooth transitions between Hapkido and BJJ techniques.
    It's really neat, but many of the "new" dan techniques at higher levels are simpler and more streamlined than the earlier ones. I don't learn a lot of completely new techniques nowadays, but I learn new entries and simpler applications... "simpler" because with the concepts and basics firmly in place, the more "advanced" stuff is easier now! (Also, "ki" development mkaes so much stuff much easier at higher levels).
     

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