Martial Art v.s. Martial Sport

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by American HKD, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greetings

    I seen it posted elsewhere but in discussions about BJJ and Hapkido.

    One's a "sport" geared towards sport compeptition and one's "Mudo" Martial way.

    The Philosophy behind each one is very different, BJJ, Olympic Judo or TKD, College wrestling, Boxing are all one in the same mentally, and Philosophically.

    Mudo on the other hand is a way of life beyond the sport realm as is the approach to learning and training in techniques.

    I'm hoping this thread doesn't digress into who's tougher or which art is better.

    I'm speaking in the Philosphical sense about the different approaches to training and the purpose or goal of what is expected out of training.

    Please use your thinking caps here.
     
  2. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    wow this topic has never been done before! I expect a real quality conversation to come from this one.
     
  3. ubermint

    ubermint Banned Banned

    Sometimes I feel like Sysiphus.
     
  4. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Me too
     
  5. Covaliufan

    Covaliufan Valued Member

    Unless you're in the military, you're not likely to be an actual, practicing warrior (what army are YOU in, American HKD?). I doubt those who are actually in the military (who by definition are the ones really following the martial way) are living anything like your so called "Mudo."

    However, us bjj'ers, muay thai fighters, boxers, judo players, wrestlers, and hell, let's take pity and throw in some tae kwon do fighters: we all actually are what we strive to be, combat athletes.

    Errr...sorry, I can't really remember your point. What was it again?
     
  6. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greetings,

    You can ease up on the sarcasim.

    I suppose what I'm trying to relate may be taken out of context or you don't understand.

    Combat Athletes is a new term for me, is a college wrestler a combat athlete or a boxer, TKD, Ok I agree.

    But I believe what you speak of is still in realm of sports, I speak of Martial Arts.

    Ok you don't like the term Mudo, but street survival is more about Mudo than a combat athlete who trains for the ring IMO. I don't know to many Bjj guys or Thai Boxers who have good weapons skills or expirience against multiple attackers etc.

    I train for real self defense situations and the street not the ring, again this is the philosophy of Mudo.

    Mudo is alive and kicking and realistic for modern MA training and society.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2005
  7. Covaliufan

    Covaliufan Valued Member

    There are a lot of assumptions behind what you just said that I simply don't buy into, but hey, maybe I really don't understand. So clarify for me:

    What is it about believing in Mudo that makes a "martial artist" better able to fight than someone who trains to get into cages and fight until knock out or submission?

    Can someone in the Mudo way out fight one such "cage fighter" in an unarmed fight? If you think yes, do you have any evidence to support this opinion? If no, what makes the Mudo guy better equipped to fight several people at once than the cage fighter who can beat the crap out of him?

    Let's tackle that first, before getting to weapons.
     
  8. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member


    were you going to make a point here or have you finished?
     
  9. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greetings

    I will not get sucked into who can beat who as I said in my opening post.

    My point is only in the type of training and the philosophy behind it.

    What weaoponry does a BJJ practioner or a Muay Thai fighter train with and master?

    I will say in the street all that applies and if I pull a knife it's not a dirty trick in Mudo normal part of survival.

    This is what you seem not to want to take in consideration
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2005
  10. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    I do my TKF for sport (its 2mins walk from me) and the master is one of the best in Aus in WTF.

    I do JKD for self defence.

    There is a huge distinction between them. Not the arts but by how we train. In tkd its alot of sparing, but its more focused on the sport aspect of fighting. Set rules, set targets, and set time limits. We do alot of drills by ourselves and focus on tecniques that score.

    We do focus on sd, but its kept to a minimum compared to my JKD.

    In JKD we train completly differently. Everything is done with a resisting partner trying to beat your head in. We fight only full contact with random rules, we use anything that causes damage (in a controlled way) and forget the flashy moves. Its more of a fight club with mates, we focus on making eachother better and use any technique regardless of style or range. There is not competetions we go to, we dont train for gradings only on bettering our street fighting ability. All the drills we do are with our partners and if you screw it up you get hit, hard.

    You have to have a clear distinction between what you want from your ma. There is a large difference between sport and self defence, not that you cant learn both from each other.

    Sorry for hi jacking your thread guys.
     
  11. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greetings

    To continue I was in a rush last post. Please remember here I'm not bashing just comparing!

    Olympic TKD scrore kick for points ( specialty system )
    Olympic Judo throws or conrtrols for points ( specialty system )
    Muay Thai score blows for point or KO like boxing ( specialty system )
    Bjj tap or choke out for points ( specialty system )

    All good combat sports and may have some self defense applications as well and many good proponents come from them however not complete MA systems from my point of view. Becuase they specialize in mainly in one area like BJJ or Boxing. In reality you must take in to account as many factors as possible to survive.

    Hapkido, Ninjutsu, Jujutsu, and others for example have more training from wider variety of attacks and use many tatics to survive including weapons. Some of the more traditional schools with good lineage are taught many techniques to the high Dan students that are designed to kill, cripple, 1,2,3, over.

    These techniques however are not known to the public and are (secret if you will) no joke!, and are mainly reserved for Master levels and the like and used as last resort material.

    I believe you maybe looking at things through a narrow window, its not your fault you are a product as I'm I of your expiriences, and yours are different than mine. Also I been around in MA for over 25yrs and have had the opportunity to be a student of some of the worlds best Masters.

    That's basically all I have to say on the subject, so you can either can open your mind and reseach all the real possiblities that exist or defend a narrow idea that the combat sports are new answer to MA.
     
  12. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    No hi jack that's what I'm trying to get across in one way
     
  13. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    I respect your opinion mate, but posting that is just opening for flames.
     
  14. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Yeah maybe your right but I hope not.

    If it gets out of hand

    #1. I won't continue with the conversation

    #2. It will show the maturity level of people who can't handle a contrary opinion.
     
  15. doshim

    doshim Valued Member

    I will try to shed some light on the difference. A true martial artist (and this is my opinion-although I know it is shared by many who get it) does not train solely to become a killing machine. Yes, you will learn some truly amazing self-defense techniques, you will get in great shape, and you will push yourself, physically. A person who trains to be a martial artist doesn’t limit him/herself to the physical realm. Once someone has chosen the martial path, it is about moving through the world with courtesy, dignity, and integrity. All the while, retaining your sense of humility. Just reading some of the language and tone of previous posts, the point has been made for me.

    I have been involved in sports all my life. Football, Basketball, Soccer, etc… I still play tennis. Although, there was tremendous growth in me, it pales in comparison to the complete mind, body, and spirit of traditional martial arts training, the lifetime pursuit of perfection of character. There is no other place I have found where you are reminded of that on a daily basis just by walking through the doors of the Dojang.

    There was a glimpse of it in The Last Samurai. Although, it was a big Hollywood movie with Tom Cruise, had some flaws, etc…It did touch on the theme. You saw the Samurai doing some intense physical training. It also showed how they balanced themselves through meditation, paying attention to the details, and living with dignity in and out of battle.

    It’s a tripod. If one leg of the tripod isn’t given the same amount of attention, it topples. The ultimate goal for any Black Belt should be “Harmony”, perfect balance of the mind, body, and spirit. This only comes through laser-like focus in your art.
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Not only is the maxim "You fight the way you train" fit here, but so does "Your training should match your goals."

    People train for various reasons and their training should fit their goals. I think sometime speople get too wrapped up on what works for them and try to push it on people who really don't care.

    Believe it or not, there are (lots of) people out there who take martial arts like TKD (which I teach) for the basic reasons to (1) get in better shape, (2) have fun competing under Olympic rules, and (3) get out of the house and get a good sweat. As an instructor, I create classes to fit these needs because they are my students and ultimately I have a responsibility to teach them what they ask for.

    Beyond that, there are students who come to TKD classes for the history and culture... so we teach that. There are others who come for self defence... and we teach that. The same goes for Hapkido (very popular with our law enforcement students).

    As an instructor, I must tailor my teaching to the needs of my students. For my competiton TKD students, I learn the latest sparring drills and rules. For my Hapkdio and self defence students, I stay abreast of the latest self defence theories and programs and am constantly revising and reorganizing what I teach.

    As for the philosphical side... it depends on the students. Some are there for a few years of fun and competition and others are there for the long haul and will build the martial concepts into their mental concepts and morals.

    I have seen some students start with the sport side and end up lifelong practitioners with a strong philosphical background. I also have seen a lot of young competitors who do great in the ring and learn all they can... the they drop out of martial arts when they lose the "competitive edge".
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2005
  17. doshim

    doshim Valued Member

    Originally posted by: Thomas
    Believe it or not, there are (lots of) people out there who take martial arts like TKD (which I teach) for the basic reasons to (1) get in better shape, (2) have fun competing under Olympic rules, and (3) get out of the house and get a good sweat. As an instructor, I create classes to fit these needs because they are my students and ultimately I have a responsibility to teach them what they ask for. [/I]

    With all due respect, Thomas, I think it is up to us as instructors to enlighten these people who come through our doors. It's up to us to say, "Hey, it's not just a gym. You're very lucky because it is so much more and here's why..."

    Sure, give them what they initially came in for, but go above and beyond by letting them in on the full potential of a martial artist.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2005
  18. Getalifebud

    Getalifebud Valued Member

    I also think that the individual trains for what they want to do, and I think that over time a person will find the bestway to fulfil their needs. I also think there is a large difference between more sporty MA and MA where it is a survival art, and neither is wrong, they both fulfil different needs for different people.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I agree with you in theory and actively model this approach. We are a small school that is designed primarily to earn enough money to keep the school alive and provide a place for us to train. The part-time students and the students who train for fun (especially families) are not coming to us to get deeply into the martial arts at this point and they come for the reasons I posted. Their support is the main thing that keeps the school alive so we do our absolute best to give them good training that fits their goals.

    Some of those students get sucked into the more martial side of what we do and grow and learn with us. They tend to see some of the Hapkido and express a desire to check it out. We let them come in and try it out. Some people don't like it and some do. Out of most students, a greater majority train for a few years in TKD and eventually move on to other things. Advanced philosphical and physical training ina martial art is not for everyone. However, increased fitness and fun can be.


    Our Hapkido program tends to be much smaller (not self-sufficient) and is focused on a realisitic self defence program. This does not appeal to all (especially since we don't allow people under 13). The techniques, reality, pressure are all not designed for everyone.
     
  20. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greetings

    I agree with Doshim & Thomas people train for different reasons and goals.

    Mine is pure self-defense, healthy mind & body, stress relief, fun, artistic goals.

    I will never would have entered the UFC not that I think it's bad, it's just not part of my goals and I'm to old, also being a family man I need to earn a living so I can't train as a full time job.

    In my school I teach for Self defense what ever works and the Art aspect, that's my personal approach.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2005

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