Marines teaching Womens Self-defence.Lord Help Us

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by Ressla, Jun 2, 2005.

  1. Ressla

    Ressla Valued Member

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4012709.stm

    I remember seeing this on a News item on BBC North West. Awful.
    Lots of ladies being advised "well if he grabs you like this- then do this", of course all training at 1/10 speed with absolutely no resistance whatsoever.
    This nonsense was frightening.

    This type of shenanigans was even more disturbing as clearly the women present had assumed that
    1)Marines are experts at unarmed self defence.
    2)As it was an "official" course being run by the armed forces it HAD to be legit.
    3)They could learn effective self defence in ONE 90 min SESSION !

    Does anybody else remember seeing this? I never got round to posting it at the time but the current Navy seal vs MA thread jogged my memory.
     
  2. Ressla

    Ressla Valued Member

    Marines move to defend women
    by Julia Houston
    BBC News


    For the Royal Marines, fighting off attackers comes with the territory.
    But for a woman, even a short walk home alone can be daunting after dark.

    According to the Royal Navy, the best self-defence is a pair of fast feet and the skill to deflect an attacker with a few deft moves.

    So a new self-defence course - set up after a brainwave by the Navy's Lieutenant Kerry Webber - aims to give women the knowledge to tackle potential attackers.

    The courses, at the Manchester Metropolitan University, are a collaboration between the marines and the police.

    They are aimed at making sure women, particularly students new to the city, feel safe on the streets.

    "The most important thing is to be prepared for the attack," Ms Webber said.

    "In the marines, we take it for granted that we'll be able to tackle attackers.


    "A lot of women freeze when they're approached. We want self-defence to be an automatic response."
    Ms Webber came up with the idea as the clocks went back and the nights grew darker.

    "It can make the difference between a nasty incident occurring and a would-be victim making their escape.

    "I came up with the idea three weeks ago, when we were talking in the office about how dangerous it is walking home alone at night.

    "The idea caught on that we should teach women how to defend themselves in threatening situations," she said.

    "We want to make sure women know a few things in advance to be prepared for an attack."

    But the service isn't just for students - any woman over the age of 18 can book in for the 90-minute sessions.

    Joining four other young women in a session, I was shown three basic moves to use against someone who grabbed me from the front.

    Safer streets

    All the moves required skill, but not strength, and I was taught that by twisting an arm in the right direction I could gain control over a potential attacker.

    Having been attacked in the past I could see how gaining the confidence to protect myself could improve my chances of getting away.

    The sessions are supported by Greater Manchester Police, who said the courses an "excellent opportunity for women in Manchester to learn practical ways of how to keep safe on the street this winter."

    If successful, the Royal Navy could roll out the scheme across the UK.



    Story from BBC NEWS:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/manchester/4012709.stm

    Published: 2004/11/15 14:45:12 GMT

    © BBC MMV
     
  3. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    I'm moving your thread over to this forum.


    So obviously you have a problem with the Royal Marines instructing in Women's Self Defense? (... sorry I'm not from UK ... and US Marines haven't made this move yet ;) )

    Or is it because it is in only 90 min sessions? ... (does not say the course consists of only one session mind you)

    Isn't a little SD knowledge passed on better than nothing??

    Good question :confused:
     
  4. Ressla

    Ressla Valued Member

    Sadly I dont think theres a video to accompany this link.
    I remember that the Marines were teaching this course for a very limited time ( no more than a couple of weeks ) and that the implication was that you would go to one or two of these seminars and learn the basics of self defence.

    The moves they were being shown seemed totally implausible. No techniques were trained at full speed, or anything resembling adequate resistance.
    It was only a 90 min session for Gods sake.

    Do i have a problem with the Marines teaching SD?
    Yes.
    I'll tell you why.They are great soldiers ,of course ,and if you have ever seen any in a pub brawl , you can tell they like to fight.

    However from speaking to marines i know its obvious they have little practical unarmed SD instruction ( asides from those who box).

    These individuals are extremely tough guys ,no doubt, but the fact that they are decent bar room maulers doesn't mean that they can teach what works appropriately to people half their size.

    And the implication that they can teach SD moves that they themselves would never use to people who are often much lighter and considerably weaker is laughable at best and dangerous at worst.

    Of course there is the claim that these techniques rely on "skill not strength".
    Thats fine if you are training 3 times a week for over 6 months.

    However its patently obscene to lull the women attending this course into thinking that one or 2 sessions in a relaxed environment of half assed aikido techniques and unresisting "assailants" remotely touches the hemline of a real world attack.
     
  5. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    I concur...but how many would attend after being grabbed from behind, thrown onto a concrete or wooden floor and groundpinned into compliance?

    I have no idea what their courses entail - so I can't comment on that...but you have made an extremely sweeping few statements.

    Whats the answer then? What should we include in these classes that will maintain a complete beginners interest that we can keep relevant to them and that will allow everyone of every shape and size and fitness level to defend themselves?

    We always seem so critical...but whats the answer? If you have the answer...why is your right as opposed to the next persons?

    Just asking - I sincerely apologise if I sound argumentative. I just want your uncluttered and honest response :)
     
  6. Ressla

    Ressla Valued Member

    Depends on what the knowledge is . On the basis of what I saw and read, that wasnt anything I would rely on in a hairy situation.

    Would I want my wife or daughter to learn that "self defence system"? No.
    Rubbish like this course only makes people take more risks due to a new found confidence in their just-learnt arm-lock , palm strike , chinese burn etc.

    Doesnt everybody remember what it was like the first time you had a MA lesson? I came out of my shotokan class thinking I could "handle myself"! After 1 lesson!
    Am I the only person who has thought like that? No , its almost universal to have that exaggerated belief in yourself after only a short time.

    Thus some people after taking a course like the one above may uneccesarily take more risks eg taking that "short cut home through the park at night" despite the inherent dangers of doing so. ( I assume that the course run by the Marines would emphatically discourage that sort of recklessness but occasionally some people think they know better).

    What would I recommend to untrained women/men as to effective self defence?

    Be fit. Get your backside down to the gym. Cardio is everything.

    And if you're attacked SCREAM. As loud you can. Act NUTS and run away as fast as possible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2005
  7. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    I certainly didn't!! I had an instructor who kept me grounded - I distinctly remember a lot of terrible exhaustion, I slipped out of the dojo (through sweat) and felt totally exhilarated all at once. I was fit for nothing though.

    [/QUOTE]
    Thus some people after taking a course like the one above may uneccesarily take more risks eg taking that "short cut home through the park at night" despite the inherent dangers of doing so. ( I assume that the course run by the Marines would emphatically discourage that sort of recklessness but occasionally some people think they know better).

    What would I recommend to untrained women/men as to effective self defence?

    Be fit. Get your backside down to the gym. Cardio is everything.

    And if you're attacked SCREAM. As loud you can. Act NUTS and run away as fast as possible.[/QUOTE]


    Makes a lot of sense...but what about awareness?

    What about what to scream?
     
  8. Ressla

    Ressla Valued Member

    Good Awareness, you're quite right, is the most important aspect of self defence. Better to recognize the dangers in time to bypass them than have to deal with an avoidable attack.

    What to scream? I assume your playing devils advocate here in that you know that the "best" thing to scream is "FIRE! HELP!" rather than "RAPE!".
    The Theory being that bystanders may be less willing to come to your aid if they think a crime is being committed.

    If you have the presence of mind to remember what to shout,then great. However I think a blood curdling scream of the first thing that comes into your head is better than nothing.
     
  9. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    I remember what it was like after my first lesson. I was full of excitement, but never did I think that I could go out and effectively defend myself. Even today when I teach my students, I instill in them to work hard and push themselves, cuz in the real world nothing is guaranteed ;)
     
  10. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I find it kind of funny that you're on about how bad of a job the Royal Marines are doing and then you post your recommendations.

    lol.

    Those are the basics of self defense for women?!?!
    A lot of assuming going on there. And your last suggestion to...

    is complete rubbish. :eek:

    Did you attend the course or is this more a case of judging the book by it's cover? :confused:
     
  11. Developing

    Developing Valued Member

    I think it would be hard for a woman or a man to learn anything effective concerning fighting in 90 min. The only way I could see anything productive coming out of this kind of session is if the students are taught just one technique and they do it continously for the full hour and a half. But even then how will it help them if they only do it that day and never do it again. I haven't seen the film so I cannot comment on its effectiveness but from what I'm hearing it doesn't sound like it will be too beneficial to women or men.
     
  12. Jujitm

    Jujitm New Member

    Act nuts???
    not good on its own learn some basics and also after reading this

    All the moves required skill, but not strength, and I was taught that by twisting an arm in the right direction I could gain control over a potential attacker.

    I laughed screw twisting their arm twist your finger through their eye, locks and holds can work but if you only take one lesson theres no hope. The marines are not masters of combat and should not be teaching anything besides fitness and shooting.

    Sorry to rant on but... THESE PEOPLE ARE STUPID!!!
     
  13. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    To be honest I've been taught some stuff by Royal Marines and potentialy if you reacted well in a fight it would work really quite well. Why shouldn't they teach you close combat because they aren't 6th Dans in umpteen MAs.
    A few good lessons from marines might make all the difference, don't forget these are fighting men, not cleaners or anything.

    Lessons from marines and their close combat training could and does work, simple as. If someone is taught well and reacts well it may be the difference to being mugged and left in the gutter or being mugged and leaving the mugger in the gutter.
     
  14. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Hi All,

    What the Marines have (IN BUCKET LOADS) and what they may - possibly - be able to pass on (a little bit of) to the women - is FIGHTING SPIRIT.

    NO of course that's not enough, but it's a HECK of a lot more than nothing at all.

    With awareness and spirit your chances of not being attacked or rebutting an attack increase dramatically.

    All the best.

    Robert.
     
  15. JayKayD

    JayKayD Meet my friend PAIN!

    Actually this could make a lot of difference.

    I read a police study once that said if a woman is attacked the best thing they can do is fight back. Being compliant is the worst they can do, because predators want their prey to be as easy as possible. If they are being difficult, i.e. fighting back, then they will abandon what they are doing for an easier target.

    So maybe the point of marines teaching women is not to make them realistically better fighters, but just to make them more confident to fight back, which could be the difference between being raped or not.
     
  16. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    I did a review article on just this back in 2000. About twenty years of research shows pretty conclusively that fighting back works. It reduces the completed rape rate from about 90% to about 20%. Even those who were not completely successful at preventing the sexual assault had easier recoveries with fewer complications. Yelling (not screaming) and running also helped significantly. Combining two or more of these strategies was even more successful.

    Arguing, pleading, appealing to the aggressor's humanity and similar strategies did not work. Begging and pleading actually increased the chance of a completed sexual assault.
     
  17. Leo_E_49

    Leo_E_49 Valued Member

    I want to see whether people agree with me on the following. No PC from me, but I don't think this'll start any kind of flame war.

    Short self defense courses for women should:
    - Be primarily aimed at awareness avioidance and escape (70-90% of content).
    - Teach indicators of violence and intent for commiting a crime in people.
    - Teach fence and techniques to seek assistance. (Calling police, running, what to scream)
    - Teach home/vehicle safety.
    - Teach never to go along with/comply with the assailant.
    - Teaching the importance of common sense. (Don't go out late alone, etc)
    - Teach the biological/anatomical differences between men and women in terms of the application of self defense techniques as well as basic target areas in both.
    - Teach a small number of basic techniques which can be applied with the aim of getting away. (Particularly escapes from typical grabs and from the ground)
    - Teach about the local law regarding self defense.
    - Reccommend seeking further training in self defense and giving advice as to where this may be found (i.e. how to find a legitimate school, not a McDojo).

    I am not too fond of the idea of short courses to teach self defense. If people are really concerned about their safety, they should put in the time to reduce their risk of danger. However, I think that they do have their place for introducing people to self defense, I believe that all of these sorts of courses should reccommend further training.

    I know about the whole "empowerment" that these kinds of courses create but I think women on these should be warned that the purpose of such a course is to help avoid and escape danger, not to give them the fighting experience/training of someone who's trained for a long time or lived in a bad area (basically, don't try to out fight a thug - aviod, disable/stun and escape). I do agree however that women in these situations should be aggressive and confident and the course should go into detail as to why this is the case (deterrent against aggressors who are used to compliant victims).

    I do know some untrained women who advocate outright fighting as a means of self defense. I think this is a narrow and uninformed view which should be dispelled. I once was posed the question "what do you do if attacked?" I said "run like hell". The girl I was speaking to was shocked, thinking me a coward. She then asked me to clarify "what if you're surrounded?" I said "make an exit and run like hell". She insisted I would be best duking it out, as if being in a situation like that and running was somehow incorrect. There's nothing fair about being outnumbered and running is the obvious decision. I think that this is the result of misinformation and a fantasization of fighting. One major focus of any self defense course should be on the fact that in most countries the process of "fighting" (i.e. mutually prolonged combat) is illegal.

    Admittedly, I have met men with the same misconception.

    90 minutes is no where near enough time to be worth it. I think several hours a day for a week may be adequate to provide a decent introduction.
     
  18. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    I think all that needed to be said has been said and pretty well. Most of all self defence is not getting in the situation in the first place and what people will use are the basics not some fancy pants stuff. I think a 90Min course is a bit short but maybe 90Mins, break, anotehr 90 Mins for four days and then it would be a bit more reasonable.
    But in the end what is wrong with Royal Marines teaching it, does it make any difference who is teaching it if they have the same knowledge?
     
  19. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    How messed up is it that people run away from someone screaming HELP! and toward someone screaming FIRE!
     
  20. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Besides, if people hear a woman yelling "Fire!" they're likely to think "Hey, that means 'Rape!' I don't want to get involved". Or they'll go somewhere and call the fire department.
     

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