MAP essay - Defence against knives

An Israeli soldier was filmed while beeing attacked during the first intifada from around 1990 The palestinian had a knife and the israel soldier was at that time unarmed. The Palestinian stabbed repeatedly and freneticly downwards holding the knife like an ice-pick not realising that the stabs was blocked by the underarm of the israeli soldier. The soldier on the other hand eventually decked the palestinian with a coupple of punches to his face. What is interestin with this story is how the palestinian never altered his angle of attack, and was probably just adrenalindriven and having no experience with knifefighting.

As for how to hold the dagger, the "icepick" hold is the one favoured today by experienced knifefighters (at least the military) Theese are the attacks we train on to apply and to counter:

*You can block slashingattacks to the underarms with the knifeblade.
*You can stab downwards aiming at the neck
*You can stab horizontally from left or right
*You can slash diagonally or horizontally (having the edge outwards)
*You can feint a overheadstab, then come under and stab the abdomen

With the "hammer" hold, you're basically only left with stabs from below and horizontally from right to left (or the opposite way if you're lefthanded) and slashes

 

I have to say that if the Israely soldier had focus on controlling the weapon instead of blocking and taking wounds he would have been better off.
This story is an example of the fact that in most cases someone with a knife is so focused on using the knife that they will forget anything else that is available to them. My sensei says that if he knew that his opponent would try to pick up a knife to use it against him he would drop his knife on the floor every time. The average atacker would be so determined to pick up the knife thinking that it would provide an advantage in the fight that he would give up logical thought and be more easily subdude because of it.
If someone has a knife that is all they think about. True, there will be the odd super knife fighter that might do diferently, but most cases is what you need to be most prepared for.
Again. The soldier in the above story was very lucky in my opinion that he was able to defeat the knife attacker with only 2 strikes, but he gave up too much and the rick was too great. Get out of the line of fire. Control the weapon. Then disarm. Then hit him all you want.
CAn you tell I will keep saying this, or what?

 

No offense, are you reading your own advice? The reason I write that is from a self defense perspective you are doing the same thing. As soon as the knife came into play you're obsessing on grabbing it (vs. checking and controlling. In this case the soldier, who was surprised and dealing with the physical effects of that, had the clarity of mind to block the knife and then punch the guy in a vulnerable spot in order to control the situation. He took full advatange of the fact that the attacker was so obsessed over the knife. If he had been able to manage to grab the knife then it simply would have been two people focusing on the knife, one attempting a disarm, the other resisting it.

Actually the case that Stolenbjorn cited illustrates why I don't think "knife grabs" are the most functional self defense for knives. The fact of the matter is that, in a surprise attack against a live and resiting opponent it's very difficult to grab a knife. You're body is dumping adrenaline into your system which makes small/fine motor skills go out the window. And that's what you need to catch the attacker. Additionally your banking on the fact that your going to be able to essentially "catch their jab." And in the case above the attacker, when ever he encountered a barrier pulled the knife back and struck again. The attacker didn't attempt to muscle through the barrier. Which mean that the soldier is then attempting to catch a moving traget, while juicing on adrenaline. Not going to happen for most people.

What I would suggest as a reality check for everyone teaching knife defense is the following drill:

Don old workout clothes. Get eye googles and get some thick point sharpie markers. Let one person be the attacker. And then let them attack, however they want, at 3/4 - full speed. Their goal is to stab or slash you as many times as they can. At that point begin to work your defenses.

Once your down with that, start to work scenarios. The person approaches you and verbally engages you. Then they produce a weapon and threaten or attack you with it.

Just be careful with this type of drill as sharpies can break skin (I know from personal experience). But what you'll begin to see are the strengths and weaknesses in different forms of defense.

Again, I think the defense that Gojuman described above is good in the right context. But I think that context also includes a person weilding a larger, heavier knife (or sword) and being partially weighed down by armor (like many defenses that come from Ju Jitsu) so they are maintaining their momentum through the attack (becuase it's that momentum that will prevent them from withdrawing the technique while the self defense is being executed).

- Matt

 

been there done that. was mugged at knife point.

first thing is to get as much distance from the point or blade.
you do that by running, dodging or simply wretling that knife away.

expect to get cut. you may get out unscathed but if you expect getting cut it won't be as bad on your ego.

scream for help like a ninny! an armed opponent is always at the advantage.

there are no hard shoulds or shouldn'ts in combat there is a context for all things.

basically keep your eye trained on the knife. the guy may as easilly switch hands during a struggle. and try not to be on your back (been there done that).

then do what you do best. (what ever that is disarm, kick, punch break a bone whatever)

in any fight INJURE do not hurt. mere hurting releases adrenaline steeling the enemy. injuring (a broken elbow for example) brings a person to his senses at the same time effectively subduing him.

 

let me those in my cheap 2 cents on this...

My instructor teaches the Philippine Marines on FMA (pekiti tirsia kali) based knife fighting and he prefers that they go with what's part of their training from Day 1, which is to use the tapping/checking/striking rather than just the grabbing/disarm, although the latter can be useful depending in other circumstances. The men he has trained have used their skills in actual knife combat and they are pleased with the results.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not a question of which is better, grabbing/disarm or tapping/checking/striking. You can use both; you need to use what’s better for a specific situation and opponent.

The tapping/checking/striking strategy is IMHO better for and against trained knife fighters. Someone who is skilled with a knife is very quick and getting a hold on him for disarming will be very difficult, if not impossible. The knife fighter’s bread and butter is speed and precision, so getting his hands and his weapon will not be easy. He is trained to expect a grab and disarm and keeps moving to make sure it doesn’t happen. Facing off with a knife fighter even in training will make this very obvious.

A knife fighter is trained to strike at targets while keeping his opponent positioned so he can’t counter, like pushing the elbow on the outside to expose the ribs and kidney and prevent the use of the arm and the weapon. Going for a disarm is impractical is your are being turned away from the knife heading to your kidneys.

The grabbing/disarm will probably work for unskilled attackers after you have closed the gap and have struck them hard enough to make the disarming practical. But you still have to close in safely so checking and trapping the weapon is necessary. Going in with just a punch and kick is suicidal. I spent 10 years doing aikido and after seeing how a trained knife fighter moves, I realize that simply grabbing and disarm is extremely dangerous. If faced with a knife attack, it would be better to presume that they are skilled with it. So trapping and checking would be an ideal strategy.

Yes, the Israeli soldier survived because the attacker wasn’t trained to use the knife properly and the soldier was better trained than the attacker. The attacker was just single mindedly going for the soldier’s head that he didn’t consider other equally deadly targets. Which is not what a trained knife fighter will do.

A trained knife fighter will immediately shift to another target as soon as he feels that “opening” blocked or countered. He will “flow” to another opening and strike there. If he is using FMA, chances are he will try to cut your arm or face as he moves in. If he connects, he will either strike again or just shift to another target. This flowing attack, moving from one target to another, is what makes just grabbing and disarming impractical. You will need to counter his first strike and be ready for his next one and spot any opening that may develop. Once you see the opening, you flow towards it and gain the upper hand. Going for your strike first and not looking out for his strike and flow leaves you wide open.

Just my 2 cents…

 

Sorry for not making myself clear; he controlled the knife by simply holding his arm raised in front of and above his head. The palestinians arm landed on his forearm, not the dagger.

I will allso thank the last poster for his 2 cents... It's just as I think it is in modern fighting vs. a trained (steven segallish) opponent. (Steven Segal is a crap acter, but seems to know his knifework...)

I train medieval knifefighting, where slashing wasn't an option, as most people worth killing(for money) wore padded clothes (gambersons). Thus most teqnices is taught against thrusts which are more comittive, and easier to counter with grabs/locks/disarms than slashes or continous movements as described brilliantly in the rather long post directly above.

 

No offense, are you reading your own advice? The reason I write that is from a self defense perspective you are doing the same thing. As soon as the knife came into play you're obsessing on grabbing it (vs. checking and controlling. In this case the soldier, who was surprised and dealing with the physical effects of that, had the clarity of mind to block the knife and then punch the guy in a vulnerable spot in order to control the situation. He took full advatange of the fact that the attacker was so obsessed over the knife. If he had been able to manage to grab the knife then it simply would have been two people focusing on the knife, one attempting a disarm, the other resisting it.


There is still a missconception about my answers and my stance maintaining that out of the line of fire control the weapon disarm is the superior technique. It is obviously not the only techniique that will work, but given percentages it is indeed the best stratagy. My own advice is not to wrestle for the knife but to apply an appropriate technique that will disarm the attacker. My goal is to have him drop the weapon and move away from the weapon. I am not going to use it in most cases, although that is an option. We work many techniques and it is easy to see what works and does not work. What really has a low percentage of working is striking someone off of the attack. This soldier was very lucky and had a tremendous risk of getting stabbed.
When I see techniques of one hand blocking and striking with the other I realize how weak this type of technique is unless you are vastly superior in strenth . My granny could pull away from most one handed grips so I would think that any average attacker hopped up on goof balls would be able to pull away.

 

Ok. in the end we can both agree on the idea of moving out of the line of the attack.

Could you phrase this in a different way. I'm just not sure of what you are trying to say.

- Matt

 

In my mind the same is true of most Ju Jitsu based knife defenses. Because Ju Jitsu is a descendant of a battle field art, most of its counter are based on working against a VERY commited slash/cut (becuase the person was bringing a heavier weapons) while being wieghed down with armor. And in that context there were only a few angles that a committed slash would come on.

BTW, before one thinks I'm harping on Ju Jitsu, a similar thing is true with most Filipino techniques. There's a big difference between a knife in the Phillipines and one here in the US. The FMA knife is a LOT bigger and heavier, which means that it can do a lot of things that a 6 inch tactical folder can't (a visa versa). Anyone training knife defense needs to udnerstand the root of what they are practicing to in turn understand it's realitive modern effectiveness.

- Matt

 

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Originally posted by gojuman
My granny could pull away from most one handed grips so I would think that any average attacker hopped up on goof balls would be able to pull away.

Sorry. I thought I was being clear.
If you try to hold on to the attacker with only one hand he will be able to pull away easily. His adrenilaine will be pumping and he may also be on drugs (hopped up on goof balls). Also trying to block and strike back takes too much for granted that you will ,as this lucky Isreali soldier, be able to stop his attack. Grab the attacking wrist. Break his wrist , elbow or shoulder while taking the weapon away or just having him to drop it and move away. Then pummel him.
I don't understand why people insist on sparing with someone who has a knife and is intent on stabbing you with it.

 

Agreed. So why would two hands really be any better? Almost as easy to break free from two hands as it is one. The key I think, whether you are using one hand or two, is that your next move must be simultaneous or you will end up losing fingers.

Blocking and striking takes just as much for granted as grabbing and breaking. I have limited knowledge of grappling, but I am assuming that this is required to get into the position in order to perform a break. What I do know about wrestling is that it requires strength, more so than striking does. I have gone up against some big b*st*rds in my time, all required a great deal of effort when grappling with them.

Perhaps I'm being pedantic about the definitions you use. I think we are all agreed that your premise of:
1) Get out the way of the weapon 2) Control weapon 3) Disarm
is sound, but where I think the contention lies is with the understanding of what steps 2&3 actually entail. Trapping with one hand at the elbow whilst striking will do this.
Try this drill, similar to the Tai Chi "sticky hands". Standing on inside or out of opponent, place hand on elbow area, preferably just below (what ever is more comfortable/effective). Now your attacker has to try to hit your body with their hand. Now try with your hand on their wrist. Also it would be good to grab the wrist and see how much movement your opponent has. Alternatively, and slightly riskier, you can wrap the weapon arm up with your own. This does of course require strength (grappling) and runs the risk of serious damage to your arm if it goes wrong. It can also limit your attacks. On the upside, it will seriously limit the attacks of your opponent.

Let us know how you get on.

Budo.

 

We're kind of discussing several aspekts of knifefighting at once; there are so many peremisses mixed together that things get a bit coufusing for my part.

I dont' think you can line out one single mantra for how you should conduct yourself (and I don't suggest that any of you do either)

We must divide between wether both are armed with knifes
What clothes you have
How many you're fighting
Your chanses for getting help/ getting away
The nature of the knife (a screwdriver can be used for stabbing f.instance)

The israeli system works on the following peremissis:
*You don't get much time to train and perfect a knifefighting system (no armies have time for this, that's only in Holywood movies). Hence the system has to be simple.
The israeli system is the simplest I've heard of; rais the hand(s) and punch -very simple to learn and drill in.
*You're usually armoured with at least a flack jacket, possibly gloves and a helmet too.
*your opponents are usually untrained and frustrated civilians.(this last one is not a kick to the izraeli army, it's simply a fact that terrorists use bombs, the palestinian police use assaultrifles and the civilians use stones/sticks/knifes)

I don't say that this system is perfect, just that it is worked out by one of the most experienced armies of the 21th century, and that it probably works for them. Will it work for a sunbather on Cocacabana? I don't think so...

It's the same with the knifework I do, it's an archaic system not fit for the modern streets. I use it for reenactment, stagefights and LARPing

I allso want to say that grappeling a knife isn't just beeing obsessed with the knife and grabbing with only one hand. It's very effective in Fore del Libere, where you grab the knifearm with both hands and breaks the arm in as many locations as possible on the shortes time possible, and only if a window of oppertunety for such action is present. "You never force a tecniqe!"(Quote my mentor)

 

I'm sorry, I seriously can't write less than 300 words....

I remember once I was told to write an essay for drama about a performance we had to do, to be blunt, I came out with a 3000 word essay on non-naturalism and it's relationship to ensemble performance, and how it was portrayed.

 

Agreed and I think this conversation has run out of steam. It's pretty clear that each side (or perhaps sides) has their own interpretation of steps 2 and 3, based on their training realities. And I don't think any of us are going to be swayed from our positions. I don't think any of those positions are bad, btw, just different (perhaps some are more optimal than others).

I definitely also agree with what Stolenbjorn wrote. In the end, it's really important to not only understand a defense that you're learning, but the culutral context it came from. I think this is possibly the greatest short coming of TMA's. They often continue to propigate defenses that were built in a different time and for different conditions. Even the best technique in the world will fail if it's taken out of the context it was meant to be performed in.

0 Matt

 

Agreed.
So, whats next?

 

best defence vs a knife

Anyone who's seen crocodile dundee should know a simple answer to that!

quote: "you call that a knife?"

lol

sorry had to say it guys

 

Dunno.

Guns?

Start a new thread...

Budo.

 

Will do.

 

Total Amateurs can be very dangerous

Somebody else said it better:

Also applies to knife fighting. Sometimes, you think you've seen them all, then some "ignorant" bloke (just quoting Mark Twain) comes and sticks it in you in the most embarrassing way: just sticks it in.

:love: