MAP essay - Defence against knives

Can we both agree that an unskilled knife wielder is still grounds for concern?

That's really my only point. To not be dismissive of an untrained person with a knife.

 

Oh, definitely! Sorry to go off on rants!

- Matt

 

No need to apologize, mate.

My reaction was mostly to the idea that dealing with an unskilled knife attacker would require less skill on your part. I mean, yeah, it would require less skill, I suppose. But not enough to get all nonchalant about it. Know what I mean?

 

Hmmm.... that is a good idea. Going to try that, would be very good to see how all my theories of "I would" in my head turn out.

 

In the same way as a normal knife - run first, failing that deflect/parry (if possible) and keep hitting the wielder until they stop moving.

If there is a chair or big stick or traffic warden nearby then use that instead!

 

You can also use your jacket if you're wearing one. Even better if you have a thick jacket. Use it to your advantage by whipping at him. If you hit hard enough, that thing will hurt if he gets hit with the zipper or buttons.

 

That of course assumes you are carrying your jacket. If not you will end up being tic-tac-toed before you can even move your zipper. If someone is attacking you with a knife you have got crap all chance of stopping them with a jacket. I'd personally strongly advise against that strategy

 

Don't forget to wash it off afterwards. You don't wanna be seen walking around with magic marker ink all over your face and body.

 

If the essay is still open, I would like to add my entry.

The presenting of a knife (or other weapon for that matter) is usually for psychological effect. The trained user, in this example a street robber, will use the weapon as not only as a lever for compliance, but also a barrier, remember you have to get past the weapon in order to deal with the attacker. Studies, at least in the UK, show that the instances of the weapon being used once presented are extremely rare. The untrained wielder with use the weapon in much the same way. Attacks vary, in both types of attacker, from simple single stab/slashes to extremely "frenzied" attacks using wild slashing movements.

The only advantage you have is the knowledge that the attack will more than likely come from the weapon. The disadvantage you face is not knowing which sort of individual you are dealing with. Take some comfort in the knowledge that if your attacker was good with a blade, then you would know nothing about it until you noticed your own blood. As the saying goes "A shower rarely stabs. A stabber rarely shows"


As for comments about defence. This is difficult. Assuming you have seen the weapon, then get something between yourself and the attacker, like a table or chair (preferably a brick wall), run making noise as you go, get an equaliser if the above are not available. Fighting is an altogether different ball game.

Budo.

 

Excellent work again, people.

Go to the top of the class. 5 gold stars

Any more?

 

All manuals surviving from medieaval europe allso state that of all weapons, the dagger (or knife) are the most decieving, viccious, evil and dangerous (that are words used in different manuals when introducing to daggerfighting)

I think the reason for this is that the ranges you're operating on when using knives is so short that there's hardly any reactiontime. So everything have to work on reflexes and hunches.

Have any of you any experiences with grabbing the opponents blade?
Several medieval manuals shows this as valid teqnices, and they work when we do sparring. The clue is to not grab when the blade is in motion, or when it have been used to put butter on slices of bread, as I discovered at a party when I tried to demonstrate that it is a perfectly valid option to grab the blade...

 

wooah. Nice thread. My thoughts..

Firstly, anyone with a knife and intent to wound is dangerous, skilled or not. I consider it more dangerous than a gun - because whoever is using the knife must be prepared to get bloody.

Besides the wrists and neck, there's a substantial vein that runs down the thigh.

I would quietly part with money / cards if faced with a knife weilding thief... but there's that part of me that would like to stop one of these predators, or at least make them think twice.

 

Correct on the femural artiery Jimmy! And on the part with your wallet rather than engage someone wielding a knife at close range.

Not to keep driving a point home, but with the neck, wrist, inner thigh arteries, the thing to udnerstand is that in order to really "kill" in these spots there needs to be a stab with a good chunk of pentration. The human body is rather well designed to protect these spots and to deal with superficial damage to arteries. But if the entire artery is severed then one is in TROUBLE!

The person who taught me most of what I know about knives works in a hospital. He once showed off a rather scary 3 stab combination (one to the femural artery in the thigh, one to an artery that runs in the bicept,and the third to the jugular) that (according to him) that, even if performed in an operating room, would cause the person to bleed out before the damage could be repaired. Not that it's necessarily possible in the heat of a fight, but rather it's the concept of where to stab and the ramification of those stabs.

Knife = scary stuff. Heck so does gun, club and even unarmed attack.

- Matt

 

Matt, just to clarify a bit of biology. The artery in the arm is known as the brachial, the Jugular is a vein, whereas the other in the neck is the Carotid artery.

I'm also curious as what depth you define as "a good chunk of penetration"?

Budo.

 

Judderman,

Thanks for correcting my ignorance. I've been meaning to get a good basic anatomy book so I stop making those stupid gaffs (since they tend to undercut the point that is being made). Any chance you can recommend one?

As far as stab penetration, I'm trying to remember (my foggy memory says approximately an inch). But I've been owing by Kali Guro an e-mail so I'll ask him directly about it rather than mis-state things again.

Thanks again for the correction!

- Matt

 

In a recent session on knife work we were told to
1> run
2> use Geoff Thompson style disarming question to engage attackers brain then either
a> run
b> disarm the person if we had no other option

One thing that was stressed was that you keep hold of the hand/arm with the knife and keep breaking it [if you can] until able to get rid of the knife.

We have been doing many sessions where we have been avoiding large stab/slash movements however the major danger is in small semi-concealed fast movements at the very start of the conflict.

Also learnt an interesting technique for use in home invasions where you drop to the floor and cut the archilles tendons of the attacker with a carving knife from your kitchen

:yeleyes:

If he cant walk he's less inclined to want to beat up on you! And you can be sure he wont want to mess with you in the future!

 

Matt,

No problem.

Gray's Anatomy is ideal.

Its a bit complex, but wonderfully detailed.

The stab depth sounds about right, although if I was a pedantic, oppinionated sort of person (and I am ) I would say that this depth would also depend on the location of the artery/vein. Some come very close to the surface of the body, especially those in the arm. Although a shallow cut/stab may not be enough to cause the vessel to collapse, as your hospital friend described, it will cause death from extreme bleeding.

Budo.

 

On a slight side note, we recently watched a 'training' video called running man as part of a 'street brawling' seminar. It was supposed to expose most of us who had never been in a real fight to what you could expect - nothing like the movies.

Anyway, in one of the clips two girls are fighting and trying to beat the crap out of each other. When one of them gets pinned she reaches into her pocket and pulls out a smal 1-2 inch blade and drove it straight in behind the knee. The amazing thing was, through adrenaline the injured girl didn't even notice until after the fight when someone noticed the hole in the back of the leg.

If i'm ever up against a knife and my first option to run is removed somehow, I hope adrenaline does the same favour for me. Expect to get cut and fight as if your life depends on it, as this is most certainly the case.

 

The swedish foregin minister was stabbed down with a knife with a blade only 6 cm. long. (4 months ago) The attacker stabbed at the inside of the shoulders (armpits?) and in the groin region (you can see from the jacket the minister wore that have been shown on TV). The doctor examining her allso said that one of the stabs had gone straiht throug one of the ribbones.

Knife is a killer; especially in modern times where only MC people conserned with security use leather/kevlar protection.

 

Here's the jacket