I have a little practice group that meets in my garage to work on Hapkido and Kuk Sool (Hapkido). Ever since we started training there, the main consideration has been how our floor was set up. As this is a non-commercial, garage club, we don't have money for a nice tatami set up. We did have standard Zebra interlocking puzzle mats leftover from some previous (closed) schools and few blue folding mats for high falls. This was has worked good for five years or so, but I longed for a floor that would allow for robust falling and throwing. I had just resigned myself to the fact that I would have to wait until I had a few grand to spare when a friend of mine told me about a cheap flooring system he had used to create a safe falling surface for a fraction of the cost. I did this myself this weekend and it works great. I decided to share it so others might benefit. It requires: 1. Puzzle mats. The interlocking kind you find in the majority of Taekwondo or Martial arts schools. (This is the most expensive part, so this flooring system really works great if you have these already and want to make them better to fall on). 2. 3/4 inch OPEN cell foam. Get the cheapest and squishiest you can find. We got 260 sq. feet for about 300 bucks. 3. Thin hardboard. The ultra thin light 4x8 pieces. (This is the stuff you see in garages with peg holes drilled in, only without the holes). This is about 8 bucks a sheet. Every other flooring system we heard about involved closed cell foam and was still fairly pricey. What makes this different is that this uses really lightweight spongy foam. Our system uses a layer of lightweight foam over concrete. (We put some plastic down to avoid moisture seeping up from the floor). Then the hardboard goes on top to disperse the weight. The puzzle mats go on top of this. We ended up having a great floor that feels like the puzzle mats are floating on a layer of air. We can practice and are able to take decent falls anywhere on the floor without having to haul out the blue folding mats. I've posted a picture of what it looked like during construction, and would be happy to answer any questions that are posted or PM'd.
Interesting design. How is it for kicking? Any problems with it shifting around and throwing off your balance?
Not at all. the hardboard keeps mats sort firm on top, but they seem to kind of "float" rather than squish. We were able to tell where the seams of the hardboard underlayment were, because we neglected to criss-cross the boards and the foam sheets, but this was one of those stupid mistakes that we could have avoided. I plan to pick up the mats and do this over a weekend soon.
Thought that this was a great set up for judo.. would it work as well for Hapkido?? http://www.judoamerica.com/coachingcorner/springmat/ powchoy
Sure, this would work for hapkido. A better option than ties would be closed cell foam blocks under the plywood underlay. I considered this type of floor, but decided it was too labor intensive and that the plywood would increase the cost too much. Also it is not portable.
I still don't quite understand how many foam blocks you used. Did you cover the whole ground? Or put them on the corners of the hardboard? All the best.
Pazifist, The foam was not blocks but rather a 3/4" sheet of foam laid on top of plastic and concrete. The foam and hardborad cover the whole surface, under the mats. The hardboard is ultra thin lightweight manufactured material and just lays on top. The blocks mentioned earlier refer to another type of floor (we did not build) where closed cell blocks are placed at about 1 or 2 foot at intervals under plywwood. this type of floor is used in gymnastics, and judo. What makes the design I used unusual is that it uses open cell foam, which is much softer and squishier. Most other underlay type matting is closed cell, which is firmer. By itself this material would be too soft and would not work, but the thin "hardboard" disperses the weight. Let me know if i can explain something better.
Did you use a 2x4 framework to establish stability around the edges? Would you say it functions like the Cage flooring in MMA or softer? Also: Do the Puzzle Mats on top tend to slip on the Boards? Do you hear audible cracking on impact from say an Ippon Seio Nage?
TKDDragon, No, there was no framework. It's just lay down and "go", with no "construction" so to speak. I have never worked out on a cage floor. But it has about as much give as MMA mats, or tatami mats, except that the surface is slightly firmer on top, but compresses with more give, if that makes sense. the best way to describe it is that it's kind of like a floating wood floor, only softer. It also does not "spring" as much. Incidentally, a friend of mine got this design from a guy at a foam shop who had no connection to martial arts but knew alot about foam. My frien told him what he has trying to accomplish and he came up with this. It is not as nice as MMA mats or tatami, but for the money it works great and has only minor drawbacks. I have standard martial arts school type puzzle mats in my garage arrainged five by five (about 260 square feet). not counting the cost of the puzzle mats, which I had already, the foam sheets cost aound $310 and the hardboard was another $65. In contrast, my best quote on new MMA mats or Tatami delivered was about $2,000 for new and $1,300 for used local mats. As mentioned, this is for my garage where I teach a few students, not a commercial setting. I do however think it would work for commercial schools as well. Also, the puzzle mats do not shift on the boards, but there is some minor shifting over time with the hardboard causing some seams that you can feel if you know there are there already, so I expect that I may have to slightly adjust it every week or two. But there is no fast shifting problem during throws. there are no special or unusual noises either. Also, I only have 3/4" of foam which works good for medium breakfalls. For fast hard judo-type throwing that would be done over and over in single practice, I would either use additional folding mats, or else go up to maybe 1-a-half inches of foam on the bottom. Still, you could take a few hard throws on this as is surface and be fine.
Thanks Thanks for the design. Look's like i have so garage modification in my future. I may have to modify the design a bit as I don't intend to convert my entire garage just a portion of it. This would require framing which is why I asked about it. Also as you do more throws from Shoulder height and above post you observations as my only concern is the possibility of splintering the under side of the board from these types of impact. This over time could really chew up the foam.
I think I will have to replace the foam every two years, but I opted for the cheapset kind. My friend has only a portion of his space done this way and it has no frame and does not shift, so I do not think you would require a frame. The shifting I mentioned above is only about an inch or so. The hardboard comes in flexible 4 by 8 pieces that have some give, so I do not believe they will break from any type of throw.
It's been a while since I started this thread, but I wanted to give an update on how the floor is holding up. The floor shifted considerably more than I anticipated and became uneven. The mats started to buckle and come apart in some areas. We solved this problem by picking up the entire floor and duct taping the foam pieces together with triple rows. Then we laid down the this hardboard and duct taped tit together as well, again with three lines of taped overlapping per seam. Both of these actions involved two people pushing the material together while taping to ensure the seams fit flush. When we laid down the hardboard, we made sure that the seams went perpendicular to the seams in the foam After doing this the floor is nice and flat, and does not buckle. So far it has not shifted either. I wanted to post his, in case anyone makes a floor like this, they should do the taping first, before the puzzle mats get laid down. It works great. Again, if anyone has any questions, please PM me and I'll be happy to respond.
One of the schools where I used to teach used a frame work of 2x4's and used tires to fill the space inbetween.. You can put the closed foam sheets over the tires and from there use the plywood to give a firm base floor.. This type of floor was used for over 10 yrs and the only thing we did was to replace the plywood from time to time and replace the foam sheets as they collapsed in density.. Just a suggestion from past experiences in financially strapped schools starting up..
Cool. Just bought a new house with a garage and I intend to partition a part of it off for training. Good to see different options for the flooring as I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do.
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I just now noticed it at the bottom of the list, and I thought it worth mentioning the absolute CHEAPEST type of floor to construct for falling. It's somewhat labor intensive, but the main idea is that it costs very little in terms of materials (also note that it's not very portable either). The first thing to do is to scour all the dumpsters behind carpet installation businesses. The remnants they discard will just end up in the local landfill, so no worries about helping yourself to any "good" selections (obviously bypass any carpet that has peculiar stains, especially if possessing a smelly odor, LOL). Using a box-cutter, trim acceptable finds into 2x4 foot pieces. Using nylon twine and an upholstery needle, bind the corners after stacking 7 to 8 of these carpet pieces on top of one another (two per corner for a total of 8 bindings per compiled "pad"). If you want to make each pad a bit more stable, you can add a stitch along the sides (either one stitch/binding on each long side, or for more security but also more work, one on the short sides & 2 on the long sides). Two by four framing will be necessary for your desired layout (and why it's not particularly portable). Most pre-made tarps (be sure to get heavy canvas as opposed to plastic) aren't equipped with enough grommets along the edges to secure them properly over the frame, so once you've filled in the frame with the composite carpet pads, you'll either need to buy a grommet kit and add them yourself, or contract a customized awning/tent manufacturer to make one that does meet these requirements (not all that costly but it would be the most expensive component to this set-up). I shouldn't need to mention that you'll want to screw in eye-bolts along the outside of the frame such that they line up with the grommets, but just in case I do, then I just did (and of course, use a lightweight but sturdy rope to tie the tarp covering in place). One last thing to mention is that the 2x4 foot carpet pads should be alternated in orientation, the first two being laid vertically, and the second two laid horizontally, wedging them as close together as you can get (you don't want any gaps to appear later, as they can be dangerous - causing a twisted ankle or whatnot). It's also a good idea not to make the frame on all 4 sides and hope your pads will fit snugly, but start with two sides to form a corner and see how it goes, cutting each side shorter if necessary in order to form a nice, tight fit (you should also add the eyebolts last, to ensure the tarp fits snug as well). I've made such a floor before and depending on how large you make your falling area and how much *free* carpet remnants you can uncover, it shouldn't take more than a week or two to assimilate all the needed materials. This type of floor is sturdy enough to do forms (i.e. prearranged dance-like movements that some MA practice) yet forgiving enough to do falls, albeit not near as forgiving as closed-cell foam mats (remember that traditional tatami used to be made with compacted straw, and so this "used-carpet alternative" is more in line with the older type of tatami as far as *softness* is concerned).
