Mace, Tazers and knives.

Cheers Yoda.

If you read my post, you'll seem I mentioned intent. It is not common place to carry a steak knife around, therefore if you stuck a mugger with one, you would have to answer questions about why you were carrying it.

Col

 

It's also hard to justify carrying MACE around in order to open packaged computer boxes at work

MACE has bulit in intent - it only has ONE purpose.

 

One question.
After you were done defending your life with the steak knife.
Could they prosecute you for carrying the steak knife?

 

Possibly, thats the point I was getting at.

I shall attempt to be less oblique in the future.

Colin

 

I thought maces purpose was to defend yourself with it.

3 inch blades is a bit much to open a box dont you think? In the states we have box cutters that only get as long as 1-2 inches long. Even as short as those box cutters are some students in philadelphia come into school and use the blades to cut other students hence the phrase "I ma cut you *****"

 

MACE's purpose is to spray in someone's face.

Attack or defence is dependant on the person using it.

 

The way I see it, is like this:

Today's attacker will be prepared for his victims to carry pepperspray and other defense weapons, and in most cases the attack will happen so fast that there's not a chance in hell you'll ever even start to reach for your defense weapon.
I know this doesn't exactly help those who carry a pepperspray as a selfconfidence booster, but that's how it is.

Even police forces around the world, have found out that if an attacker jumps you, from as far as 10 feet away, an officer won't have the time to draw a weapon. And people ... these are persons who are properly trained in the use of a weapon that isn't hidden somewhere in a purse or a pocket !
Police forces encourage officers to take up unarmed fighting in these cases, and not even bother to TRY to get to their weapons.
In fact ... if the gun stays in the holster, it's a lot more secure, and there's a lot less chance the attacker will get hold of it.

And the second point is that if you carry any weapon, you should be prepared to see that weapon used upon yourself.
Trying to find a pepperspray in a handbag, if a guy jumps you .... forget it.
Even if you get hold of it, chances are you'll drop it in the fight, and if your attacker picks it up .... well, you do the math !
Then he'll still be the initial attacker, but now he's mad because you dared to defend yourself, AND he has your weapon.

 

Ok let me put my 2 cents in since I have had experience with all the above-mentioned devices. I am a Deputy Sheriff and have also been a Correctional Officer with the Florida State prison system.

Knives are a good weapon but they can get you in a lot of legal trouble but a women being attacked by a man can damn near get away with anything in protecting herself.

Tazer hand held is nice especially the more noise they make but you have to get close to use them. Projectile Tazers are illegal in most states except for law enforcement personnel.

Pepper sprays can be good but there are so many trashy ones out there that you better get a good one. I do not recommend foam because it was designed to be used in jails and prisons due to confined areas and recirculating air systems so it doesn't have the reach you want. Also don't get a mist type either cause a small breeze and it's not going where you want it and might end up in your face.

The only type I recommend especially for women is a jet spray type because they have distance capabilities and are less deterred by a breeze and actually have a little punch that hits the attacker in the face.

Don’t forget that attackers on drugs and alcohol don’t respond to pain the way a normal person does and all of these external weapons might not be effective at all against them.
So just remember no matter what type of external weapon you use it's just an extension of yourself and should never be relied upon unconditionally and you should use them as a distraction or hold break and then escape.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

 

@ICT:
I notice that you only comment on the effectiveness of these weapons, not on the oportunity to ever get the weapon out in the first place.
I never really doubted their effectiveness, but I honestly doubt that there's time to find that pepper spray in a handbag, once the attacker is there.

Even if he's not jumping you right away, once you reach for something in your bag, he's more likely to jump you, than run away.

What is your opinion on the time span in which a defender will have to find that weapon ?
How fast will an attacker travel 10 feet ?

I realize that eg. belt buckle knives are fast, but how about a weapon that's in a bag or a pocket ?

 

Monty,

You raise a good point. Part of any self defense training regiment needs to be practicing drawing and bringing the weapon to bare.

However, and maybe ICT can speak to this, it's my understanding that most self defense situations begin with some form of verbal exchange/confrontation. This includes women self defense. In most cases the victem in first approached by the attacker, there's some sort of exchange and then things escallate.

The self defense system that I've had some experience with makes a huge deal about being aware of your surroundings, the impression that your giving off and how people are reacting to you. In a lot of cases people deny that someone may be "casing" them (the "this can't be happening to me" mentality). I think there's a lot more time to ready yourself for self defense than most people think. But you need to be able to admit to yourself early that you are in a potential self defense situation.

- Matt

 

@rockOn_Matt

Exactly. I agree with you on most of what you say.

And it's true that most attacks are initiated after some type of verbal confrontation.
That would maybe give you the time to find the weapon.
But it's also grounds for another of my concerns:
A verbal confrontation could in many cases be ended simply by screaming. If you reach for some kind of weapon hidden in a bag, that might be the spark that actually forces the attacker to jump you.
He's after your $50, and if he can talk you into handing them over, he's happy (at least in some cases anyway).
He's NOT happy to see you're going for that 357 Magnum in your bag !
So, he HAS to jump you before you can get the gun out.

I know it's a more or less primitive way of describing the problem as I see it, but I hope you understand my point

 

I uderstand what you're saying. Understanding the verbal component of escalation is important, because it helps in developing a defense. Technically, even before the verbal engagement there's a psychological engagement. Example of this: you see the person on the street and sense their intent to panhandle you at least a block before you got to them. Once you acknowledge that's your entering a possibly hostile situation you can begin to work to defuse it (and be prepared to escalate as need be).

There are two things that attckers fear (excluding those with mental illnesses)
- Getting Hurt
- Getting Caught
Anything that you can do to suggest that this is a possibility or probability will help defuse the situation.

So by using that early awareness to get ready, it's possible to avoid the situation:
- Verbally confront the person at a distance to demonstrate awareness (ie: Turn and ask "You following me?")
- Move into a well lit or well trafficed area (store, major street)
- Find and prepare your mace, etc.

The more you can emotionally, pschologically and physically bring to bare prior to the confrontation, the better chances you have of avoiding/surviving it.

- Matt

 

@rockOn_Matt:

I totally agree.
This phase of self defense is widely neglected, and people are concentrating too much on the phase where there's no other option than physically defending themselves.

In our self defense classes we try to highten awareness of how you move, how you dress, where you walk and such. Just to take it one step further and avoid the situations entirely.
Of course we're not telling our student to dress boringly, or to never go out for a drink. But we do teach them to be aware of the signals they're sending.

And as you point out, the phase where it narrows down to an escalating situation. I completely agree with you on what you said
But again, we're teaching our student a lot about body language, choice of words, and such.
Because the REALLY critical point is the second the attacker realizes he's been spotted, and someone's gonna act on it.

That's the reason I wanted to point out about the attacker's reaction, when you dive for the weapon.
Keep your cool, and don't go for the weapon unless you're absolutely 100% sure you're gonna make it.
That is definately not the time to make a fumble !

 

Monty,

The question of being maced and the tazer thing was what I was responding to and my response was on my experience and use of the items and not on deploying them.

However that is another intricate detail to carrying and using such external weapons.

Unless one is psychic then they can’t be prepared for every blind-sided attack that can occur. Some altercations do start out verbal and others don't, so one needs to be prepared and trained for both situations. That is why I don't like to just hand a women a can of Pepper Spray and say this will protect you, go get'em. Can it, Yes. Will it, Maybe.

It does depend on how one carries it and also how one deploys it. In some cases these types of weapons can be used first and then hand to hand tactics employed or vice versa but yea I've never thought it a good idea to throw one of these type weapons into a purse and sling it over their shoulder and they think they’re going to be able to pull it out and use it during an attack.

That is why I think that a women’s self-protection class should cover hand to hand and weapons training. The more types of weapons a person have the more chances they have that one will protect them. Without getting into the Law Enforcement ‘Use Of Force Matrix” Police have Hand To Hand Tactics, Baton, Pepper Spray and a Firearm, that’s 4 types of weapons their trained with and carry.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

 

@ICT,

Thank you for elaborating on your viewpoints.
Basically we do agree then

I just thought it needed to be pointed out that carrying a weapon does not defend you. You defend yourself, using weapons or not.
And relying completely on a weapon would be wrong.

 

Thought I would let you all check out pics and soundbytes of people getting zapped by tasers.

A local radio station sent one of their on-air personalities to a local police dept. to feel what it is like to to get zapped with 50,000 volts of electricity.

Getting zapped by Tasers

 

I don't think anybody ever doubted the effect of a tazer.

My point is that no matter how effective a weapon might be ... it could be one that vaporizes the attacker in a split second for that matter ... it will not hurt an attacker if the weapon never leaves the purse or pocket.
And in my opinion chances are it won't.

 

Oh I know... just thought that you'd have to be a real idiot to subject yourself to having someone zap you for giggles.... just a funny side note to the thread.......

 

ANY weapon that is not in YOUR COMPLETE control during the ENTIRE confrontation is your enemy just as much as the attacker. he weapon is either with you or against you. Since you can't (legaly and sanely) go around brandishing a sword or machine gun the best weapon is YOU!!! Punch, Kick Bite, Scratch, Head butt, Scream, Thrash about like a crazy person. If the attacker is trying to rape you Pee in your pants!! Do any thing and everything you can, just dont expect them to wait while you charge the bateries or load your gun or find something to use. If it's not in your hand from the begining, it's (probably) not useful.

 

A female police officer in New Albany, In tried to use her tazer on a knife wielding teen came at her. Tazer did not fire and after being stabbed in the shoulder and neck she put several new holes in his body.

You also have to hope for a good shot and for the 'pricky things' (technical talk) to hit and stick. The tests that I have seen they place the prongs on the person standing still.

Though they could be effectively employed, don't bet your life on them. Practice your h2h and do scenarios where your tazer fails and you bash the attacker in the head with it.

Thanks for the link KC, I haven't been hit with one but I hope to have a chance some time down the road.



Ken