MA vs Boxers

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by CirrusFalcon, Feb 4, 2004.

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  1. Pro Killer

    Pro Killer New Member

    I would have to pick the Boxer to win against any martial artist because they have incredible timing, Punching Power/ Speed and Defence. Also Boxing concentrates on Fitness more than any other MA!
     
  2. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    PEople beat people. there you go, there is no denying that. HOWEVER, boxing has inherent weaknesses like all martial arts...
    1) They train with bounded hands and gloves. They hit with that much power in a fight, I hope they make contact with something thats going to hurt their opponent, because if they hit the top of the skull, they will break their hand.
    2) A pure boxer does not think about legs since being a boxer, he doesn't have to, and so therefore would be susceptible to any low kicks including groin kicks. A Muay Thai/normal kickboxer isn't as susceptible, but as someone stated before, their punching is not as good. However, they do have good perceptive speed...
    3) They train with rules. But they do play dirty so okay, this doesn't really count!

    Again, its not the art, but the practitioner...etc etc!!
     
  3. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    This is an interesting point, I've worked the door with many amateur boxers and in alot of the fights they've been in I've witnessed, sure they lay the guys out fast, but they do have a tendency to break the last two knuckles on their hands.

    Bare in mind that these guys were amateur boxers though (but still very good).

    Col
     
  4. Pro Killer

    Pro Killer New Member

    Can i just that Boxers have better conditions knuckles than any other MA so they have least chance of breaking their hands than anyone else. Plus they have better punch accuracy so they chances of them hitting the skull is limited!
     
  5. semphoon

    semphoon walk idiot, walk.

    No thats wrong- EVERYTIME a boxer spars, hits pads or the bag he has his hand wrapped and gloves on top of that.

    Other striking MA's like karate and tkd (itf) etc hardly ever wear wraps and actually encourage their practitioners to condition their knuckles.
     
  6. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Acutally, there have been numerous cases of boxers breaking their hands in fights because they're trained to hit with a LOT of power, often to hard areas of the body like the brain. Here's one case of this in Mike Tyson's history as an example:

    Aug. 23, 1988 -- Breaks a bone in his right hand in a 4 a.m. street brawl with professional fighter Mitch Green in Harlem.

    - Matt
     
  7. praying-mantis

    praying-mantis New Member

    Like semphoon said, that's wrong. Of all hard styles, Boxers have the highest chance of breaking their knuckles, or at least a very high one, because

    a) they train in gloves, most others arts don't
    b) they don't realy exercise their knuckles and wrists
    c) Boxer's are not used to hit with the 2 front knuckles
    d) when without gloves, they have a very strange fist because they're used to gloves

    Oh, and I think that many people watch Boxing on TV, so they think it's superior.
    You may want to kill me for this , but I think that, If I would have to pick a style for a real fight (please don't use the word street fight ;) ), I could think of 30 styles to pick, and boxing would be none of it.
    I've read this thread, and people write things like "boxers hit fast and hard, they can dodge EVERY (sry but big lol) punch, they have a very good condition..."
    So what, you want to tell me that someone who does Karate, or Kung Fu, or anything else does not hit hard and fast, and can't dodge strikes?

    I bet that if there were Karate Tournaments on TV instead of Boxing, everyone would think that Karate is the best style for a real fight.

    Could someone plz give me a REAL reason why Boxing should be such good?
    I mean nothing that has to do something with the person , but with Boxing.

    Hu, this thread really got me upset :)


    praying-mantis
     
  8. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    A consistant emphasis on practical application and pressure testing of techniques in training combined with strength development and conditioning. The fact is that boxers spend a LOT of time actively practicing their trade against a resisting opponent. And it's been clearly demonstrated that while it's not everything, the rule is that the fighter with greater amounts of flight time (plus superior conditioning) will typically win out. That's been proved time and time again.

    Of course this type of training methodology isn't restricted to boxing. However, it isn't embraced in many MA programs. Programs that use these strategies typically produce superior fighters.

    But perhaps the best reality check is to find a local boxing gym and see if you can go a few rounds with them.

    - Matt
     
  9. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    I'd say that boxers are in general better at avoiding and catching punches than practitioners of Karate/TKD etc because they do throw them harder. So its get out of the way or lose teeth.

    Col
     
  10. JurassicWarrior

    JurassicWarrior New Member

    boxing/MA

    I would have to say in the U.S, the boxer often stands a better chance. The reason being, boxers do all the other stuff required for their training, the bag, rope, heavy bag, sparring, etc. Most(but not all) MAers in the US tend to do karate/kungfu/taikwondo two nights a week and that's it. Boxers training is much more rigorous. Granted Mike Tyson did bust his hand on Mitch Green's face. That can happen regardless of style. Now let's go to Japan, Okinawa, CHina Korea and the Other Asian countries of interest. While we're at it let's take boxing back in time before the Queensbury rules, and let's go to the Roman era, let's study French Savate as well. I think it's safe to say there is no real answer. The Okinawans valued karate as much as a knight valued his sword so an Okinawan karate guy is more likely than not more than a match than an American karate guy. Boxing is a sport so Americans don't quite value it like a sword. However those who do it put their hearts in to it, unlike some MAers I've seen.
     
  11. MuayThaiGuy

    MuayThaiGuy New Member

    Erm, that's because they actually hit things. And they hit things A LOT. Of course this is unique to the individual school, but when I tried other arts there was a lot of punching air, which doesn't teach you to punch hard.
    Uh...try punching a heavy bag from hours on end like boxers do and you'll see how wrong you are.
    Actually they are. Those two knuckles hit naturally when you're doing boxing style punches. What, do you think we turn our knuckles inwards or something?
    You've never seen a boxing class, have you? Practically all of them involve some shadow boxing, where you're boxing in front of a mirror without gloves on. It takes exactly three seconds to teach someone how to form a proper fist, I don't know where you're seeing anything strange.

    Not around here, bud. Many of the people here have experience in many arts, and so have a good perspective. You should listen to the voice of experience.

    Also, you've never fought a boxer, have you?
     
  12. Guy Mendiola

    Guy Mendiola New Member

    From my previous Boxing training I think that in Boxing you do more punching instead of all these kicking arts but Boxing would teach you other excersises like bobbing & weaving drills,jumping,shadow boxing,bag punching,hand pad drills, and etc...,In between since Boxing is basically about punching it usually is more effective in punching and reflexes like in reflexes there are a lot of slipping and parrying which makes this martial art effective than others in a way in punching.
     
  13. craig jamieson

    craig jamieson New Member

    Geoff Thompson said....

    in response to the doubt about MA vs Boxing, Geoff Thompson, one of the best 'real/street/combat/whatever' instructors out there said if he could take one art only, it would be boxing. most fights start at punching range, or get there very quickly, so the TKD practicioner is F**ked cos he cant kick you(i know, im a boxer and i've sparred with TKD guys). the judoka would be good if he was lucky enough to get near you, but unless he's trained in a striking art, will not be used to getting hit, probably will have a shocking guard anyway, so will leave himself open as he rushes in - boxers LOVE that, hehe!

    Cheers

    craig
     
  14. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Because US boxer train differently than any other boxers?
     
  15. Pro Killer

    Pro Killer New Member

    They train the same as any other boxer, its just he doesnt know about any other boxer.
     
  16. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    I don't know where I've read it, but Im sure theres a (dodgy!) fact out there somewhere that states that one in every three punches a boxer throws will break his/her hand without gloves. I can believe it since boxers do have an amazing amount of power when they throw a punch, and don't get me wrong they do conditoning when hitting a heavy bag, but its not specifically conditioning for the knuckles, its more for the muscular/tendon strength in the wrist and hands, not the bones. And the bones in the hand are weak. In fact there is something called a 'boxers fracture' because it is the most common boxing/fighting injury around, I think. Look up when Mikey T broke his hand...
    Why should you study boxing? Like I said, it has its inherent weaknesses.
    But on the plus...bobbing and weaving, possibly one of the most amazing facets a martial artist should have I think simply because it shows you how to read moves and rhythm. And the hook, which I personally think is one of the most efficient and devastating techniques you can have, should definitely be part of a MA'ist repertoire.
     
  17. MuayThaiGuy

    MuayThaiGuy New Member

    I'm definitely going to have to call BS on this one, I'm 99.8359358% sure that's a made-up statistic. :D

    I'm wondering how you condition the knuckle bones in your hand? I thought the only way to increase bone density was high calcium intake and resistance training.

    I also wanted to poing out that boxing schools DO instruct their students to hit the correct parts of an opponent with the gloves off. My instructor emphasized very much to punch for the nose or jaw, never the rest of the head. He also teaches us neat blocks that are designed to do things like break the hand of an opponent punching at you with an ungloved hand.
    Heh, yeah, I've had one. It wasn't from punching a person though (and it was before I started studying boxing as part of Muay Thai). It involved a bad scene of me walking in on an ex girlfriend and a roommate in bed, and me punching a wall and finding there was a stud there instead of punching him. In retrospect I wish I had had a little less self control, punching him would've been a lot more satisfying and less painful. Then again SHE was the one that really deserved a punch, but I don't hit women.
     
  18. praying-mantis

    praying-mantis New Member

    We do train with heavy bags, just without gloves.

    When you're wearing gloves you can't aim with the two knuckles.
    You not only need to hold the wrist in the right position, but aim with those 2 knuckles.

    By doing press-ups on the fists, about 400-800 a day. This works well, it helps to strenghten the wrists and the knuckles.


    praying-mantis
     
  19. MuayThaiGuy

    MuayThaiGuy New Member

    My point was boxers DO exercise their knuckles and wrists.

    You don't really need to hit with those two knuckles. When I'm punching without a glove on, my hand is aligned so that the knuckle of my middle finger will strike first. As I'm trained to strike deformable targets (nose, jaw, body), that knuckle will push in and the impact will also be spread to the two knuckles on either side of it. This is a great way to prevent a boxer's fracture. In fact, the only way this is going to be a problem is if I'm striking at hard targets, like the forehead or the back of the head. Boxers know not to do that because it just isn't effective.

    I'm not convinced that this will strengthen the fists in the way you think it will. I'm going to ask this in the Health and Fitness forum so that the people who are more knowledgeable in sports med will weigh in.

    I think this quote from emedicine.com says a lot:
    A boxer's fracture is defined as a break through the bones of the hand that form the knuckles. Some doctors use the term "brawler's fracture" rather than "boxer's fracture" because a boxer is not likely to get this injury. The less well-trained brawlers have to learn how to punch without hurting themselves.
     
  20. Guy Mendiola

    Guy Mendiola New Member

    That is not true that the TKD practitoner could be F*cked because you should know that there is other styles of TKD like ITF and WTF which ITF teaches punches and WTF teachers punches also but in the tournaments it's only basically about kicking,Being a Boxer also I too like rushing in and throwing in some punches.
     
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