MA Effectivity - i am confused

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Mr.Black, Apr 25, 2011.

  1. Mr.Black

    Mr.Black Valued Member

    Trying to be short:

    there are two types of folks who claims they know how to practice and learn MA to be effective:

    a) for self defense, you should learn very litlle amount of moves, they should be very simply, they should'n use fine motor skills, and they should be done instictively without thinking. Means you practice about 20 tehniques.

    Arguments are that while in stress you have no time to think which one of 35355 tehniques you will chose to defend and that while at stress you lose your fine motor skills.

    b) for self defense, you should learn numberless of tehniques so you can cover most of situations that can happen. you should do them first slowly and patient to gain perfect tehniques and then repeat it over 10 000 times and more so it becames your reflex and possibly second nature.

    Arguments are that while in stress you can not think much, but if you know many tehniques and they are practiced enough, your body and reflexes will choose the best tehnique. Fighting without thinking while moving from one tehnique and stance to another is the ideal and goal in this way of teaching.

    So i am a bit confused. First of all, am i right? Or i missed or don't know something?

    I belong to the b option, but there is litlle doubt which bothers me, can it be like that or it is just an ideal, or even a reason why a very big number of martial artists ins't so effective at all.

    I didn't have the oportunity to test it, neither i want, i just ask myself sometimes does knowing about 40 defending tehniques from wrist grab makes any sense in real world.

    What do you think of it?
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter


    If you choose your techniques for A carefully you've covered B, ie "most of situations that can happen".
  3. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I completely agree. The quicker you can make a decision as to what you are going to do, the quicker you can react and aren't still stuck making a decision. The OODA loop if you will (Observe-Orient-Decide-Act).
  4. Osu,

    If you can train 20 techniques with intent for 10,000 times, and find your ferocity switch, you are covered when a fight erupts.
    However, there are steps that led you there that you ought to study (awareness, fence, de-escalation, dealing with adrenaline dump, etc...)

    I just had a bad case of verbal fighting with someone in the car park earlier today... the adrenaline dump was so intense, that once the event was over, it took 10 minutes for the shakes to subside... then I had to eat to refill the energy tank!

  5. Santa Barbara

    Santa Barbara Valued Member

    just a couple of judo throws can be enough in most cases, if properly learned and applied, if you are just looking for the self defense aspect. I think there were 67 tech's at one time (I think originally, including newaza) but some have been added or eliminated, so Im not sure what the number is now. You will find that despite the talent or experience of any judoka, not many have more than 3 or 4 tech's down packed to perfection, even if they practice far many more than that number. Im convinced that just 1 perfected judo throw would be enough to help anyone in a self defense situation. Everything depends on the circumstances of each individual case.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011
  6. Kemposhot

    Kemposhot Valued Member

    I'd have to agree with A as well.

    However, in the course of studying MA you will eventually go beyond your "20" or so techniques. As time goes on I feel you'll naturally want to learn more if you continue to practice. Although a strong base as stated above is important.
  7. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Surely it is necessary to ask the question - how many techniques are there?

    Every type of punch is just a punch (1)
    Every type of kick is just a kick (1)
    Every type of block, deflection, evasion, lock, throw .... (5)

    So are there even 20 techniques?

    Also - If in a conflict situation you have time to think of which technique you are going to use, then I suggest that you probably have time to disengage and go get a coffee :)
  8. Wastelander

    Wastelander Valued Member

    Why do these need to be exclusive?

    Option A will give you much faster results with less of a scenario spread while Option B will cover a much wider spread of scenarios but will take much longer to achieve proficiency. Doesn't everyone start at A and work toward B? When you first start working self defense techniques you learn 5 to 10 basics and drill them over and over, then maybe you add another 5 or 10 and drill them over and over as well and you have your Option A. If you simply continue this process then suddenly you've reached Option B, and it is in the course of pursuing Option B that you will learn which techniques you want to use most. After a while you will start narrowing things down again to what works best for you and you'll be back at Option A.

    So, again, why do A and B need to be exclusive from each other?
  9. JaxMMA

    JaxMMA Feeling lucky, punk?

    There's no magical numbers to martial arts...

    Your style is like a tool box. Your techniques are your tools. If you're trying to rebuild an engine, you need various tools and knowledge. You can't rebuild an engine with only 20 tools :)
  10. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Train with 'aliveness'.

    Develop your athleticism.

    Develop the strategic, mental and interspersonal skills that make up the bulk of actual self defence.

    Enjoy your life.
  11. SheaGrubbs

    SheaGrubbs Valued Member

    The adrenaline dump is the hardest thing for me to deal with. I'm a firm believer in breathing techniques, however even these don't help with the adrenaline, sometimes.
    @ OP
    I feel that you should start with a select few techniques as a base, get those down so pact that they become second nature, and add on from there. Repeat the process with as many techniques as possible, so you can be ready for any situation. This way you don't have to think about which technique to use, you just do it.
  12. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    i see it like this- there are the most likely forms of attack (EG someone swinging a wild right/haymaker). Train against it A LOT. Pick maybe 5/6 scenarios like this, train them most and realistically.
    Everything else is a bonus.
  13. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    You train alot, you learn to fight. Its your ability to fight that you'll use, and whatever techniques are necessary will come out.

    Having said that a fence and a big right hand are personally what I tend to automatically go for first, not that anything got physical for me in years fortunately. Not sure what would follow after that, probably just more right hands :D
  14. Mr.Black

    Mr.Black Valued Member

    Thanks for answering..answers that got me most are from robertmap, wastelander, and arthurking. Even all answers are great!

    @robertmap - i like what you said - at least my understanding of your words is that they resembles princip of "don't think, fight" and of not complicating the things.

    @arthurking - i think this answer sums it up pretty well and i think it would be great to train like that (and i do).


    You are right, everyone starts (or they should) a and work towards b. They are net exclusive. You helped a lot.


    But let's ask: in context of psychology and neurology, which way of teaching and crusing through tehniques would be the best? If we are towarding to the b option.

    And what confuses me more - what is the tehnique and what is the variation of tehnique? When we do wrist lock and throw oponnent to the side is one teh. When we do wrist lock and pull him direct down, is it another teh or just variation? When we add kick after throwing, is it..

    Should we threat varioation of tehnique as a new tehnique and practice it separated, or should we practice one tehnique but in different ways in once?

    Litlle interesting experience: before few months i entered into verbal fight with one guy. We "fighted" for a minute, and then in one moment i saw he is walking closer to me with intention to punch me. In that moment i felted adrenalin pump in my body, totally uncontroled i got into fighting stance, and most interesting, in that one moment EVERY tehnique i ever tryed or learned has past through my head.

    I feelted i was so ready, that no matter what he do i will defend. I guess he saw it to so he just looked me and walked away.

    I feelted so strong and fast that few moments, like i never experienced before. But still i was calm and contectrated so is it something more than just adrenallin?

    Is this good or bad, and did some of you experienced..

    May sound like an begginer questions, but i am a begginer, and even after few years in arts this basic questions bothers me.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011
  15. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Translation: you got into an argument in the car park and pat your shants.
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    There's a few systems that I have experience with that boast a large number of techniques. I think one of them has around 2000 techniques.

    In truth though, they are all just variations of a much smaller set of techniques.

    As one of my instructors explained to me, it is about short forms or principles. Another way to put it is that the very first part of every technique comes down to the same basic reactions. For example, if grabbed from behind around the neck, there are only a few basic reactions that you train, all of which protect the throat, and lock the elbow, drop the weight, for example. Or another example, if faced with an opponent in front, there are only a few basic reactions such as getting off the line of attack and blasting through the opponent. You might have a 100 techniques that all start off the same way but then do something different after that.

    So even in systems with thousands of techniques, it really still comes down to understanding just a limited number of reactions or fundamental techniques that all else builds off of.
  17. ROFL! ---- viewed from that angle... :D:D

  18. ThaiNinja

    ThaiNinja Valued Member

    What are peoples opinions on what the 20 techniques should be?
  19. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    If I go over the limit and use 21 techniques, does something bad happen?
  20. ThaiNinja

    ThaiNinja Valued Member

    That's just showing off :D

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