Lyoto Machida vs Shogun Rua

Discussion in 'Fight Discussions' started by The Decay of Meaning, Mar 25, 2010.

  1. The Decay of Meaning

    The Decay of Meaning Valued Member

    How could one possibly explain Machida winning?

    Round 1,2,4,5 clearly in the hands of Rua. In addition, the legs of Machida were badly bruised up. Not that it matters that much, but his face was cut on two places. Shogun could have fought all night and Lyoto would eventually be unable to stand.

    Rua landed crisp, powerful shots and completely countered the karate style of Machida. Just to give you an idea, at one instance Machida was about to punch, and what does Rua do? He doesn't just counter. He counters with a kick to the leg of Machida and while in the air he punches him in the face. Machida couldn't even land it.

    The straight forward karate style where Machida rushes in was systematically countered with hands folded over the head, and then countered very well.

    So what about the judges criterias? Obviously Rua won most of the rounds, obviously he landed the more crisper, powerful strikes, and Rua had more Octagon control.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the judges were actually bribed. I've seen the fight about 3 times now and have come to the same conclusion each time.

    What were the judges thinking? That Machida was smashing Rua's fists with his face? That the bruised up thighs of Machida did damage to Rua's leg kicks? What world are they living in?

    Your thoughts?
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2010
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

  3. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    That's not the sort of thing the Machida camp would do. I didn't like the decision either, but don't be suggesting that Machida or his pals paid off the judges, because that's just unpossible.

    The best explanation I've heard is that Machida was favored by the judges because he's the reigning LHW champ. If you're going to dethrone a champ, it's got to be absolutely decisive. A KO or a submission is just about mandatory. While Rua out-performed Machida, it wasn't the sort of smashing victory that judges like to see when someone is trying to dethrone the champ.

    I don't like that, because I don't think judges should give heavy deference to a champion. I think they should score it like any other fight. But it's very likely that that's what they did do. No need to resort to bribery rumors.
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    lol... they bribed the judges... end of. :p
  5. Pitfighter

    Pitfighter Valued Member

    Well Chitty chitty bang bang.

    I thought this thread was goina be about the rematch. Honestly I think everyone agrees the fight was unfinished. Who shoulda won the first?

    Who cares (as much)? When the fight will be concluded in the rematch.

    Got my money on Shogun. Shogun does what I wish more MMA strikers would do he works his Muay Thai. Great leg kicks. I understand that guys are afraid of counter punches and takedowns but when you keep kicks low on the legs you decrease the chances of either and at the same time you chop your opponent down.

    I really hope Shogun locks up Machida with the Thai plum. Cuz Knees are waaaaay under used and under rated. It's obvious that Machida's to quick for Western boxing so I think Muay Thai fundamentals are tailor made to counter Machida's quick slips.

    Aside: Dare I hope that Muay Thai make a come back? Personally I'm tired of dudes just sprawling and brawling with boxing alone. If it really helps you win and finish I'm down but I think everyone in the UFC is just trying to remake the UFC into some bastardized form of boxing.

    Last thought. If this fight hits the ground Shogun's got some bad Jitz. Machida has shown some ability to get up and takedown but hasn't shown much finishing skill on the mat. Hell Tito almost subbed him and Tito's like never done that his entire career.

    This fight's going to Shogun.
  6. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    Give Machida credit. When I saw the Tito-Machida video I also thought 'Tito almost submitted him!'. At the time I thought he just got lucky to escape. But actually the escape he pulls off against Tito is one of his 'go to' escapes from triangle.

    I'm a fan of both of them. I loved Shogun's performance in the Grand Prix. But I'm pulling for Machida.
  7. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do


    Big fan of both, Shogun should have won the first fight with a unanimous decision. It was easy to score IMHO-

    The rematch I give the edge to Machida because he will make the necessary adjustments...

    Shogun is awesome but predictable-
  8. Pitfighter

    Pitfighter Valued Member

    Well personally I think Machida is kinda predictable. He always circles away and leans away after a punch. His attacks are usually counters or darting in our out. This makes it easy for him to slip away strikes and easy for him to shrug off takedowns. But.. it all kinda relies on his legs and that weird leaning stance.

    I think that's why Shogun is his kryptonite. Shogun's leg kicks take away the source of Machida's elusive movement. And once the legs are gone Shogun can get in tight to land knees in the clinch and dirty boxing, he'll have to since Machida can still lean away from attacks. But without great foot movement Machida won't be able to dodge the clinch.

    Now Machida may be fast enough to check the leg kicks but that still might favor Shogun cuz if Machida is worried about checking kicks he may not move as fluidly as he usually does and again it will open him up to attacks.
  9. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I was very 50-50 on this. I agree that Shogun should have won via decision. More damage was done by Shogun ( Machida reportedly had a broken rib and recieved some stitching to his face).
    But to beat the Champ it has to be quite decisive. In all fighting sports, in a draw the Champ keeps the belt. (yes even in WWE).

    Machida is a counter fighter, he moves well but only when he needs to. Machida decisively KO'd Rashad Evans when a Heavyweight Brad Imes and current UK favourite Bisping couldnt (LHW).

    Machida's credit is currently low but bear in mind, this was not his fault. He played his game and Shogun played his own. Shogun even said it himself that he thought he won so he didnt go all out at the end and risk it all.

    is the popular saying for years

    Everyone is rooting for Shogun and expecting more of the same of their first fight (as if it never happened). Machida got lucky and now is wary of Shogun's attacking style and will adjust accordingly. He knows that the crowd (and the UFC - at least Dana is anyway) is against him, stating he shouldve lost.

    Shogun may have had Machida's number but now has to re-think his strategy going in, theres no way he's "just going to throw more leg kicks".

    Lyoto/Rua 2 will be either :A: quick finish :B: Another close decision.
  10. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    Naah dude he wasn't able to. Fans and pundits have noted that Shoguns stategy was close Machida down with footwork so he had to move laterally into leg kicks.

    War Shogun!

    I was shocked when Machida got the nod. And I was annoyed when Machida came out with the 'I won 5 rounds' statement.

    I hope Shogun does an Overeem KO.
  11. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    I think you mean the level of boxing found in the LHW division of the UFC.

    Hey man, hands are high percentage.

    Machida has fought competent Muay Thai practitioners (check his record) but simply he's damn good and knows how to grapple at a high level. Don't forget he trains with A Silva so he knows how to counter Muay Thai, he also trains with the Nog brothers and himself is a BB in BJJ.
  12. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    Its crazy to say the judges were bribed. Who by? The Machidas? A) they wouldn't and B) they'd wouldn't have the serious money it would take.

    The UFC? Why would they? Shogun is arguably more popular than Machida and speaks better English. Why risk perminently besmerching their reputation by influencing a decision that doesn't make a lot of difference to them?

    Someone else? Maybe someone who'd put on a huge bet? Theres another problem, and this also applies to the Machidas and the UFC. How did anyone know it was going to a decision? Everyone thought that was pretty unlikely given Shoguns previously poor conditioning. Pay three massive amounts of money to three judges on the offchance that its a decision?

    So, no, it was just a dodgy piece of decision making IMHO. It wasn't the first and won't be the last.

    The rematch should be sick, we'll have to see if Shogun has been working on his takedowns a lot and if he'll be able to take Machida down this time.
  13. The Decay of Meaning

    The Decay of Meaning Valued Member

    This is just a technicality, but they didn't have to know it would go to the decision. "They", whoever that is, could have made an agreement with the judges that they would be awarded if it went to the decision, which it did.

    I am not saying it was bribery, but it wouldn't have surprised me, and moreover, in this post I am simply stating how the bribery could have taken place.
  14. Pitfighter

    Pitfighter Valued Member

    Oh gimme a break the ole boxing v. MMA thing is getting old.:topic: Just got off the boxing forum talking about boxing. Made the mistake of dropping the UFC once and spend the next few responses debating MMA vs. boxing.

    True. I'm not goina say a dude should just go for head kicks all day. Those are easy to block and easy to take a leg for a takedown. Besides good boxing makes a punch as hard as a kick. Still Muay Thai has other huge advantages. Getting the Thai plum and landing knees is just as devastating as a clean right hand.

    Regardless Muay Thai seems tailored to counter Machida especially. Machida leans really well and rolls his shoulders and twists his hips to avoid punches but his stance is flat footed. He's always rooted when he leans so he tends not to check leg kicks. Most of his "elusiveness" is from being able to run. Shogun has shown mixing up strikes keeps Machida guessing so that when he's ready to lean from a punch he gets kicked. And as his legs wear out it's harder to move away and then everything gets setup. That's why Muay Thai is a bit more dangerous to him than boxing is EX: Rashad Evans.
  15. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    Thanks for the technical breakdown bro, seriously:cool:. I'm a casual fan really, I don't train (injury) so my technical knowledge is poor.

    But I don't think Rashad is very technical boxer from what I've seen, he just seems to be fast (he didn't show any boxing in the Thiago Silva fight). What was his footwork like in the Machida fight? Did he try and close him down like Shogun did? From what I've seen off the last minute or so tilll the knockout he just seemed to be moving forward and flailing.

    If Rampage get's back into fighting and faces Machida then that will be very interesting to see how Machida handles his level of boxing.


    What do you think?
  16. Pitfighter

    Pitfighter Valued Member

    I actually think Rashad Evans boxing is pretty good. He's got good footwork and leads with the jab which I'm a fan of regardless if it's MMA, K-1, Muay Thai, or Boxing.

    Is he faster than Machida? obviously not. Does he have better footwork? obviously not.
    Are there things missing from his boxing repertoire? hell yeah! Besides Rashad's base was wrestling and I'm glad he's getting back to it. But against a mid-level striker Rashad's boxing from a fundamentals standpoint is good. He's not a slick boxer but I think he's got a good understanding of the basics. Which honestly is mostly all you need if you got other tools to work with in MMA. Look at Evan's 4 fights before the Machida fight and you'll see what I mean.

    As for Rampage. Ummm no. Rampage is ok at boxing mainly cause he packs power. He sees openings and takes them. He was the first of many in the UFC to punish Liddell's Lead Left Hook with counter rights. But he doesn't really know how to analyze and improve his skillsets. I mean look at how he coaches. Instead of explaining to his fighters how to sweep from the bottom to pull a switch or stand up he just tells them to stand up. It's like some drunk dude telling a pro baseball guy to stop striking out and make a homerun. No sh*** Rampage showed how to beat Chuck Liddell but he himself has no idea how or why?

    Rampage's fighting displays the same lack of anaylsis. He's got a natural knack for punching and slamming. And it has taken him far because he has won both the UFC and Pride Light HW belts. I think the clip you have of him knocking out Wandy is more of an indictment of Wandy's retrogression into a brawler from a Muay Thai fighter.
    Rampage has no answer for leg kicks ala Forrest Griffin. No answer for knees in the Muay Thai Clinch watch the first two Wandy vs. Rampage fights. He's got great power punches and great slams. Against anybody that is too much to deal with. But the top tier Light Heavies got answers and he doesn't have anything else to challenge them with.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2010
  17. Ranzan

    Ranzan Valued Member

    Machida drinks his own ****, therefore he will win. nuff said
  18. Pitfighter

    Pitfighter Valued Member

  19. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    I think the first fight was a fix - though not by Machida. It can be said that Machida has a huge following simply because he heavily relies on karate and a lot of traditional martial artists will view this as a style vs style thing with karate "clearly" being proven to be the best by Machida. Well he lost. I've done a bit of muay thai judging under tony myers and the judging criteria for striking in MMA is identical to that of muay thai. The only thing that stopped this fight from being scored EXACTLY like a muay thai fight were the take down attempts which had to be scored as well. Ironically however, all takedown attempts were by Shogun so all that does is push the score even frther in his favor.

    I think the match was a fix because the UFC sees big money in a rematch. Lets face it - it's probably gonna be one of the most watched UFC fights in recent times.
  20. Pitfighter

    Pitfighter Valued Member

    When do the spoiler tags expire?

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