Loyalty

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by JTMS, Aug 24, 2007.

  1. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    I think the question that really needs to be asked is not why these folks are teaching what they teach (they all spent alot of time and dedication training in the art of Kuk Sool Won/Hapkido so why not share the art they love...) but rather why they left WKSA...its odd to see so many seniors gone...I know this has been discussed, but it seems to be a reoccurring issue GM Seo In Sun, GM Kimm He-Young, GM Rudy Timmerman, Master Marlin Simms, Master Jay Lee, Master Larry White, Master Lee Chun Duk, Master Pak In Shyuk, Master Park Jae-Chun, Jo Sam-Sung, Yang Choon Sik, Kim Sun Duk, Jo Chun Soo, Park Jun-hee, KJN Soon Tae Yang, Lim Sung-kong the list goes on, and on and on...now martial arts in general do have a drop out rate, its just a fact of life, and not specific to Kuk Sool...but why do so many masters and other high ranks leave? Many who were extremely dedicated to the art, the won, and Kuk Sa Nim during their tenure in the art...

    --josh
     
  2. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    I have no idea why all those masters left... or why anyone (master or white belt) leaves the WKSA. But just for the sake of discussion....

    Don't always think that there's some grand reason for leaving. Maybe they just wanted to retire. Maybe they had something else change in life. Leaving isn't always some signal of some grand nefarious plan or that something's amiss with WKSA or KSN.

    I mean, I figure everyone here has held a job at some point in their lives. So, are you still at your first job? Why aren't you dedicated to your job, and staying loyal to your first employer for the rest of your life? Point being, we tend to hold jobs for a while, then we move on to some other job. Maybe we got a better opportunity, maybe we were able to make more money (maybe because we're greedy, maybe because we can better provide for our family), maybe the ship was sinking and it was time to swim for the shore. Who knows, but just because you moved on doesn't always mean that there's some deep secret problem.

    My point is... this thread seems to be heading in a direction of "all these folks left, so what (evil/negative/problematic thing) does that tell you?". Well, it could tell you a lot of nothing, because y'all don't know why these people left. Sure, some had issues, but that doesn't mean all did. Until you KNOW why something happened, it's just best to not fill in the gaps with innuendo and supposition.

    Furthermore, if we're talking about loyalty, discussion here seems to come off implying loyalty to WKSA and KSN ought to come first. Well, what about being loyal to yourself? What about being loyal to your family? I don't know about you, but when I have to choose between my family and anything to do with martial arts, my family wins. Just because you've got a stronger loyalty in one place doesn't necessarily mean you're not loyal in another place... just that sometimes other priorities may win out.
     
  3. LoneStar

    LoneStar Valued Member

    If you know it's already been asked, why do you keep bringing it up? How many Grand Masters does one art have room for? If your dream is to become a Grand Master you have to leave the organization. You will never be recognized as a Grand Master in the WKSA - they already have their Grand Masters. If you don't like it - get out and form your own organization. -But you better be good. If fame and having to be in the MA Hall of Fame isn't what makes you tick,and you'd rather practice your art be connected to things that are bigger than yourself, then most people know the WKSA provides much more than some of the newer offshoots. Those great masters you mentioned are following their training. Did you expect them to stay in the WKSA until they died? You only know their names because the WKSA gave them their names. You should be more grateful to the WKSA because you even know of them. MA puts alot of pressure on the mind, not just the body. If it's in your mind that everyone is holding you back and out to get you -, scream conspiracy and try to break up the organization - or you have to get a grip, get humble, look at your own mind to see where the trouble is and work.

    Kidosool, Karma and 3rd Eye are upset because their masters aren't connected to the teachings anymore. It's traumatizing having the cord cut. The Suh family is very forgiving. They will welcome you back to the WKSA if you feel you need more practice.
     
  4. 3rd Eye

    3rd Eye New Member


    If you would like to believe that KSN and WKSA are the greatest organization out there...that is fine. If you believe the WKSA & KSN made all the other masters ....that is fine. ​

    I prefer to believe that their personal training got them to where they are. Your instructor is only responsible for about 10% of your success as a martial artists. The rest is up to you to continue training, learning and pushing the envelope. I prefer to think those other masters made WKSA! An organization is nothing without its members...KSN is nothing with the WKSA members... Half of you guys have used those masters to inspire you to train and progress. Now you want to take their hard work and dedication away from them and lay their success at KSN's & WKSA's feet. I think that is totally wrong. The association plays it's part...but it never makes you train!
     
  5. LoneStar

    LoneStar Valued Member




    -Logically, your argument doesn't make sense. KSN is the man that gave the masters their titles, their techniques, their forms, their weapons, their opportunity to demonstrate, compete, build a school, train the millitary, and grow a student body. Your masters' parents gave them their physical bodies, their personalities, their experiences that drive them to succeed and their determination to learn and teach.

    Your complaint is full of sentiment, messy and whining. Rudy Timmerman and Marlin Sims will never be a Suh and their connection to the Suhs' is over. KSN was born into a lineage - his responsibility was given to him by his family and his master (family and master - 2 of the most powerful forces in one's life combined)- he couldn't of done anything else with his life if he wanted to, and if he had to do, he was going to do it right!

    If fame, gain, respect, ownership is what's important to you, you have to do exactly what Rudy Timmerman and Marlin Sims did - start your own super organization. They aren't a Suh and they aren't Korean but they own and operate and sit in their Grand Masters, thrones at Korean MA centers. They got everything in life that they ever hoped for, probably much more - but it's still not enough is it?

    I believe there is only so much you can accomplish on the outside in MA, once you reach master level and the beyond, the training is internal. Others feel that 7th and 8th degree black belts aren't sufficient enough representation of all that a person can accomplish and they must have a Grand Master title to demand respect.

    KSN was told that it was his responsibility to make sure the art thrived and didn't get lost - he never stopped to complain that some master wasn't teaching him his prized secrets

    The way of the "3rd Eye" and the "Karma" is lost in the United Martial "Science" Federation of America.

    Rudy Timmerman and Marlin Sims are doing just fine, and don't need you to fight battles they don't have, thanks to KSN and the WKSA​
     
  6. 3rd Eye

    3rd Eye New Member

    Wow you are funny....and you say my reply is full of sentiment, messy and whining.

    You should take your own advice....KSN and WKSA don't need you to fight their battles either.
     
  7. doctorbush

    doctorbush New Member

    A blending of two ways

    emberKSW:

    I think that western thought and eastern thought are diametrically opposed in many ways. A true martial artist, not a recreationist, must learn how to successfully blend both and still remain faithful to themselves. Sometimes my MA instructor in Shotokan did things I did not agree with, but I did not voice those things publicly out of respect. Perhaps the Master has a reason that they do something that the student cannot see. Yes, the master makes the student, who then becomes a master if they train hard. Politics happen. Look at feudal Japan and the warrior classes. There were always ways to deal with problems. I am not even a colored belt, but if I knew less of the ways of MA then a lot of what people say would be quite discouraging in my choice of style to train in. I have a good friend who is a Pu Sa Bum Nim and no longer teaches or trains because he switched his choice of careers, and he jokes with me about how weak Shotokan is compared to Kuk Sool, but we both know that unless I am squaring off against another experienced MA that I will have a serious advantage. Responsibility comes with knowledge, and that was taught to me by every MA instructor I have ever CHOSEN to train under. I am not rambling, just trying to point out that if somebody leaves it is their choice. My friend personally trined with Kuk Sa Nim and his son for a while, and he told me why Marlin Simms left. Who cares why he left? If he teaches he will teach Kuk Sool in some form. Be loyal to yourself. Show respect to your master. How would you feel if some young punk decided he knew how to teach a better curriculum than you did when he had 10 years experience to your 40? emberKSW, this is not all pointed at you, it is just a general answer for everyone to conider. I do not see anyone alive that trained under Bodhidarmha today. Shaolin has changed. Every style evolves in some way. Evolving ones style and techniques in order to improve them is not heresy or disloyalty. I do my joint locks different then my Kyo Sa Nim, but we both are effective in what we are doing. If you choose to leave a style, take the good and leave the bad. If somebody asks a direct question give a direct answer. But my Pu Sa Bum Nim can whoop your Pu Sa Bum Nim is not the proper attitude to take. If your instructor leaves the association and you like his style of teaching, then do not let the politics bother you, but do not force them down someone else's throat if they choose to switch to a different school and master. Learn, live, and love. Even Bruce Lee got beaten sometimes! So, I guess what I am trying to really say is: Why perpetuate envy and confusion? Choose a style you like and Master it. If you see weaknesses, compensate as necessary. But do not complain. You are training in Eastern arts with Eastern thoughts trarined by Eastern masters, either directly or indirectly, and in the East respect is given first and admiration is earned second. Get over it!
     
  8. ember

    ember Valued Member

    doctorbush:

    Thank you for your considered response.

    Yes, exactly. If I hadn't read enough about organizational dynamics to understand that every org was going to have issues and dissenters... I found MAP as a DBN and still had times when I wondered if I wanted to be a part of any of these organizations. Hence the notes on politics in the FAQ.
     
  9. JTMS

    JTMS Valued Member

    Why don't YOU look Master Sim's up and ask him that your self.....lol.

    I think that there would be very little mental work required to do this.
     
  10. karma

    karma Valued Member

    non kuk soolers ? you know, no one ever asked kuk sa nim why he trained a non " kuk sooler". master sims was already ranked in 13 seperate systems, why did kuk sa nim want to train master sims ? he was a non kuk sooler. and i am sorry, but i am not following your line of questioning. if we are no longer in the wksa, then what does master sims or any one of our instructors need be concerned if who we teach are " kuk soolers" or " non kuk soolers"? and sir, you are the one who mentioned flashy technique, not i.i was just stating a fact that master sims or his instructors never teach something because it is flashy. Furthermore, you act as if kuk sa nim MADE master sims or any other kuk sool master who they are, this is far far far from the truth. as i said, master sims was already a formidable martial artist in his own right, master larry white was an undefeated european full contact champion for 3 years,in sun seo was already a hapkido master, ken duncan who was instrumental in getting kuk sa nim here in the 1st place ( and where is he now?), master jay lee who did a lot of work with the houston police dept., he young kimm who was secretary general of kuk sool at one time, even master harmon who was ranked in several styles, and the list goes on and on. if you ask my personal opinion, kuk sa nim and the wksa needed these men far more than these men needed kuk sa nim and the wksa. these are the men that made kuk sool what it is today by demoing, traveling throughout the world teaching, and tirelessly being at the tournaments and masters demos etc etc.
     

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