Loyalty

Black Belt Shotokan turned White Belt Kuk Sool

The importance of loyalty lies within oneself. For me to be affiliated with an organization and to complain means that there is a conflicting nature in oneself that has not been placed in check. You can always leave if you do not like the people in charge and find a style you enjoy with people you can enjoy. I have studied Shotokan Karate for about fifteen years. I have been a first degree for 9 of those years. My instructor is a former kickboxing champion and Junior Olympic team coach. He also sits on the board of the USANKF. They demoted him at one time and I will not affiliate with them for the reason that they chose to demote him from 6th to 5th degree. It was a political reason. Well, my rank is not "officially recognized" by JKA, ISKF, FSKA, SKIF, and a myriad of other acronyms, even though our school continually wins many of the championships in these groups. So, I switched styles. After much deliberation and consulting with friends that had studied other styles, I decide Kuk Sool was the most comprehensive overall. The old saying is, "To thine own self be true." If you disagree with something then it is customary, by tradition, to hold your tongue or leave the organization with respect. Talking bad about your style or those in charge hurts not only that style or organization, but yourself as well. I still think Shotokan Karate is the best Japanese style, but I do not like the politics. I still think ATA is a great example of this in many ways, which is why I switched to Shotokan after my TKD teacher returned to Korea. The politics of ATA have made it a laughing stock amongst many martial artists, and that has hurt some of the TKD practitioners that are really good. When I was Shotokan I was true to my instructor and his affiliation alone. Now that I am KSW I am true to my instructor and his affiliation alone. These guys need to soak their heads in a bucket. That's just my point of view though.

www.stpaulksw.com
http://gleanthetruth.tripod.com/fska

 

Hello doctorbush,

I quoted your statement because I think most of us could read it again! It is refreshing to see such an approach to martial arts in general!

 

Ok why is that refreshing??

When did a governing body and a art become the same thing??

Sorry think you are a little confused. Perfectly possible to be loyal to an art and not necessarily think the rule makers are necessarily getting it right. Find somewhere in any thread that I'm not loyal to the art. There's over 900 posts so off you go. You'll find plenty where I say that its not necessarily being run properly or should be open to new ideas. Find one where I say the art itself is rubbish hmmm think you'll be challenged there.

LOL I really think this can all be explained by the fact that Americans call their parents Sir and Maam and its totally expected. Its nice when its meant, when its through expectation its meaningless, I call my parents mum and dad and does that mean I respect them less? am less loyal to them than you are to yours? Do i think everything they say is right, hell no. Do I tell them when they say something stupid or is wrong? Yes I do. You see they respect me as a human being too and as such allow me to have my own oppinion within the family. If someone in it does something wrong I tell them. Am I loyal to my family? Yes I would die for them. I just don't think they are perfect and never get anything wrong. Isn't Kuk Sool a family" art? maybe its a cultural difference I think because I really don't see your logic.

 

You know I love you guys all very much. But your all nuts. If you cant see things from anothers point of view dont question their views. But whatever.

My loyalty lies with my instructor because he is one of the coolest mother brothers in this hemisphere. Im sure my instructors loyalty lies with the WKSA - so I guess its all condusive. If I have faith in my instructor it may be because there is something worth having faith in backing him up.

Excuse the bad spelling - too much to drink this eve!

 

You think????

I think his loyalty lies with his students and thats what makes him a great instructor

I'd say his qualifications lie with the organisation, the loyalty is to the art and his students. But then I could be wrong I usually am.

 

Hi SilentMonk
I understand your point. You have made it over and over. We do not agree, I thought we had settled that?

The point you are making here is that I do not speak up about anything "stupid or wrong". This is not correct. I am not a drone or a yes man. I do not however post neg. comments about my own group or Grand Master in an open forum (this is my choice). I can communicate with my seniors in private (which I have done before). The fact that I am happy with my Grand Master and my org does not mean that I am a fool, it just means that I am happy where I am. It seems that we both live in very different situations. Even though we do not agree on these points I still wish you all the best.

Please note that I am trying to keep this positive as bickering is getting us nowhere. I simply agreed w/ another persons post.

Don't take it personal "we agreed to disagree.

 

Hi MSM,

I think you made your point abundantly clear. Some WKSA members agree with you, others do not. If you've read the FAQ's for this forum as well as some of the posts here, you'll note that for the most part we'd rather avoid political threads.

And on a personal note, I do not appreciate having a thread written with the intent of disciplining one of my seniors. If the converse was the point you were trying to make, then you are far closer to the Seo's/Suh's than I.

 

Hi emberKSW,

We must all stand by our words. To you I might have seemed harsh but believe I have not. The issue has been obviously dropped by another and I will do so as well. No one likes to hear anything negative about their teacher, this I understand. On that point I think we can relate.

I admire you for your loyalty and only wish you all of the best.

Yours in the martial arts!

 

I have to agree with Ember on this MSM, This thread was started for one intent only, to stir the pot.

It's funny that you act innocently about this. It was a pompous, selfrighteous statement. Nothing personal, just calling it how I see it. You talk about how you would say these things in private to your master etc. Perhaps you should Private message this person you 'elude' to instead of calling them out in a public forum...You have to admit, on ethic it's a little hypocritical.

 

The person that I "eluded" to refused to contact on a personal level in a past post. I am in no way being hypocritical. HE had the chance to make a contact via PM, e-mail or phone call and did not do so. As I said before I am willing to let this drop IF given the chance.

 

Put it this way,

If my instructor left and started his own thing. Then i would leave and follow.

That simple.




If you have loyalty to a random organisation, and group of board memebers? then thats your own thing.

nick

 

my loyalty is with kuk sool won, not because of the wksa, kuk sa nim or my instuctors but because of the art itself! i love training it and getting better at it.

i liken it to being a football fan (no, not soccer, football ). the club i support has the best manager we've had in years and some of the best players in years. but when they leave, or retire i will still support the same club.

 

I understand your comment and know where you are coming from but surely there must be some loyalty to the art as well.

Surely you train in Kuk Sool for what the art has to offer as well and not just the instructor? Would you still train in KS if the art sucked even though the instructor was ace at it?

What if your instructor left KS and started up a martial art that personally didn't meet your needs?

These comments are not to start an argument but to stimulate our thinking?

 

I dont train Kuksool for the art, i train it for the teachings by my instructor.

Go to different clubs and different martail arts, you soon realise what good instructors are, and the things they teach.

I would train in KS if the art sucked but had a teacher that showed me a broad scale of arts. (complete art)


But its the fact about where the loyalty lies, i mean in general we dont have contact with WKSW or with KSN, as for as our contact with Kuksool goes its with your instructor.
You learn Kuksoolwon according to your instructors interpretation of it. And thats what i want to learn.

If he left and made his own art, based on what he had learned, then i would 100% leave and follow him, to learn from him. No questions no thinking.

I mean look at the Master Sims thing. His students left KSW because of his teachings, they left KSW not because of politics or taking sides, they left because they are loyal to him.

That is what i would have done.

Of course its not the same for everyone.




I mean what does the art have to offer?

The art offers whatever my instructor teaches me. Think about it this way, its his interpretation of it, some classes up and down the country follow the exact KSW book, some do the book with added benefits of what actaully works. Some instructors teach grappling, some real self defence, some acrobatics, some more fitness.



nick

 

I agree with your points totally Shibby!

I think everyone needs to realize that their attachment to Kuk Sool is because of their instructors, their abilities, their dedication, their knowledge...not the Association. KSN doesn't teach anyone anything. The WKSA flag has never came down off the wall to show me anything.

However i still don't see the need to bad mouth the association if you are unhappy with it. If you are unhappy with the association just leave. It is not like it was 20 years ago. We now have plenty of options to learn kuk sool or kuk sool based systems here in the US. The same goes if you are unhappy with your instructor. Loyalty shouldn't make you stay in a place where you are unhappy.

I just think that publicly voicing your negative opinion is not always neccesary.

 

Loyalty to A Style is not the Question

Loyalty to an art is good. When we study martial arts as a whole, we see so many conflicting stories of history, style, founder, and so on. For example, Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan, trained quite a few students. As of right now one, his nephew Kenneth Funakoshi, is not affiliated with the original affiliation his uncle was affiliated with. I can still enjoy Shotokan Karate and be loyal to it while looking at the strengths in Goju-Ryu, Isshin-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, ****o-Ryu, and et cetera while noticing the weaknesses in it (i.e. joint-locking). We even sometimes learned some of these other systems' forms.
The loyalty is not a question of loyalty to the art, but whether or not you should openly voice that opinion for outsiders to read, thereby creating a conflict in other’s loyalty. You must remember that most martial arts systems are secretive in their teaching and that questioning teaching is not wrong, but instead should be contained in the immediate "family". If my brother has a drug problem, it is no business of my fourth uncle thrice removed. The discussion of such a matter should be limited to those immediately affected by the situation. I know a school where a Kenpo instructor left and sold the dojo to one of his students, along with a promotion of two extra degrees. If I had any insight into what this meant then I should be appalled and leave that studio and find another. Perhaps I would tell the new dojo why I was moving to their location, but apart from that, the problem is not the art, but a man. So, where does the madness end? If you are true to the art, then do not let the politics bother you. Why do you think I stayed a Shodan for nine years when there were white belts who are now Sandans (3rd Degrees)? I love the art and do not care about the politics.
So quit whining and practice harder. You joined an affiliation led by a man. He may not be perfect, but you made the choice to stay; and in so doing, have no right to question those in charge, unless of course you are worried whether or not your rank will be recognized. At the very least, Martial Arts, not to mention oriental, etiquette demands your respect to those in charge if there is no proof of corruption or deviation. When has the student ever had the right to question the Master? When has a style never evolved? When have we not all had questions? When have we not all noticed strengths and weaknesses of our own style? Bruce Lee noticed, but did not badmouth his instructor or style openly.
If I can say I do notice one weakness in Kuk Sool, it is the lack of teaching ground fighting earlier on. But again, being involved in the MA for so long, I do not question why, because I see that the structure of the "Karateka" must be built soundly from the ground up.

And like a great man once said:
"That's about all I have to say about that!" -Forrest Gump

 

Excellent points Nick, but and there is always a but,

Look at it from this angle:
A person one day decides to start martial arts, becomes an excellent martial artist then becomes an excellent instructor at teaching Kuk Sool. Take away the martial art and what are you left with?...........

What is an instructor? A person that instructs in their chosen discipline. There for the art and the instructor go hand in hand. Yes, the instructor could leave his/her association and be successful, but a large part of their success is what they have learned in from the original art they were taught.

If the art sucked (i.e poor kicks, poor techniques etc) then all you would be learning no matter how great the instructor, is poor kicks and techniques etc, no matter how broad surely?

I have trained at various different clubs and different styles under and with various types of instructors which has given me great insight into what I think makes a great instructor and which creates that loyalty from students.

You say you train in Kuk Sool for the teachings from your instructor and not for the art which makes me wonder what are you being taught? Your instructor teaches Kuk Sool in the way they see best for your development so do you not go to Kuk Sool to learn the art from your instructor?

I think we also have to separate loyalty and blind loyalty. Remember, instructors are just human beings like the rest of us. What if an instructor, became a drug abuser, wife/husband beater, child abuser etc and were told either leave the association or be kicked out......would you still follow them?

I am loyal to my instructor not just for what and how he teaches me but for his moral teachings/guidance as well. I think someone quote on another thread that its more than just kicking and punching, to me its about becoming a better person which my instructor has helped me become.

Sorry for the long post guys

 

There is a lot of talk about loyalty to the art of Kuk Sool or in fact any martial art. Respect and loyalty is a two way street, it is not a birthright. In America you must earn respect and loyalty but it can be destroyed in the flash of an eye. Just because you are born into a certain culture or family and hold a high position in an organization (GM, master, instructor) does not make you better than anyone else or deserving of their respect or loyalty. A good leader must first be a good follower. You must first give respect if you want others to respect you and by the same token you must first demonstrate loyalty to your students if you want them to be loyal to you. Never ask anyone to do that which you yourself are not doing. Lead by example and not with your mouth. There is a saying in Texas that goes something like this, “If you’re going to talk the talk then you must walk the walk.” The real question that should be asked here is… “Is WKSA respectful and loyal to its master’s and members at large?” With so many high ranking people leaving recently and repeatedly historically in past years, this might shed some light on fundamental problems. When everyone is talking it is very hard to make out what is being said, but when everyone is singing the same song you should listen. Master Sims leaving after 34 plus years of loyal and dedicated training is not an isolated incident. There are always two sides to every story. The views that I see here are the views of WKSA, and their spin on events. Are the WKSA members really being taught true martial skills? So I ask the question, why do we not see any Kuk Sool master that rival Kuk Sa Nim’s skill level or any of the other higher level Korean masters? We have high ranking masters; 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th degrees that have not been taught the martial art curriculum they are suppose to know. They joined the WKSA years ago paid their money for years, trained hard as hell, did what Kuk Sa Nim asked of them, some even lost their wife’s and family’s for the pipe dream of some day to be taught by Kuk Sa Nim. They traveled over the world teaching and promoting Kuk Sool and after all of their hard work, respect and loyalty to Kuk Sa Nim and WKSA in return all they wanted was to learn that which they were promised by Kuk Sa Nim. So I ask again how loyal is the GM who is WKSA to his members?

 

You think the 7th, 8th, and 9th degree masters don't have that high of skill? Think about whom you are referring to. As far as why the Korean masters have such a high skill level, why don't you ask one some time what their training was like in their youth, then you will know why they are so good. What is this curriculum that they are supposed to know yet do not?