This was actually a relatively easy test for KSB. The fitness portion usually last around 6 to 8 hours with the technical side being done the following day. But we were under severe time constraints due to Saja only visiting us in the UK for a short period. So, to some extent, the shorter length of the test was compensated for by its harshness. I was testing for 2nd dahn KSB, although I already hold a 5th dahn in KSHKD. THe test is about the same for all ranks of BB, except of course, there is a lot more material to be performed in the technical section. All forms up to the rank being tested for are done 4 times and every techniqe is done with full takedown. Therefore the test gets longer the higher you go. To some extent, as you go up the ranks the breaking becomes more technical rather than extreme, with more emphasis on weapons, some acrobatics (here, I believe some account IS taken of natural ability and build etc) and soft breaking. To answer the questions about who could and could not get a KSB Black Belt. The answer is simple. If you cannot do the fitness portion (I failed on the run BTW, being around 5 minutes behind time) or the extreme breaking then you cannot get a Dahn grade in KSB, regardless of whether that is because of age, in jury or disability. I did the test more out of interest than anything else and therefore was not too disappointed not to pass first time. But having completed it, I now want to continue with KSB until such time as I am no longer able to make the grade (that, of course, is assuming that I DO make the grade next time! lol) Fortunately, for those of us who may not be able to keep up the pace for too long there are the arts of Kuk Sool and KSHKD, in which an account IS taken of the candidates age etc.
ROFL nice one Obe! I guess there are a number of Hapkidoists out there, studying systems that do not include forms, who wonder how performing set moves makes you a better MAist too. I COULD discuss for hours (but I won't) the various merits and otherwise of sit ups with or without logs. How it could help strengthen your abs so that you are more able to withstand impact etc etc. You can argue it back and forth all day, but in the end, all that matters is that it is a requirement of that particular art. And if you want to earn a rank in that art, then that is part of what you have to do. PS sorry for making you wait so long for a reply....I was busy with my kettlebells! PPS If you really think your own art is mediocre I would find something else to do. But please don't put words into my mouth. I have respect for ALL MAists, whatever their style and would never call anyone else mediocre!
So would I be correct in assuming that Saja only want's young athletes as BB in his art? And is that representative of the instructors in said art? These statements make me think that you hold KSB at a higher level than other KS arts, but perhaps that is just me reading too much into it. Ooh I asked Santa for some of those for Xmas! I need more practice on patients! Well all I can say to this is...touche!
Let's get real here, people. For just about any potentially life-threatening activity, from scuba diving to CPR, regular re-certification is required. Some people will never get the certification in the first place. It was my grandfather's dream to be a commercial airline pilot, but because of his vision, all he could get was the license to taxi the planes. He also had a license to fly his own private plane, and that had to suffice. Should an exception have been made for him to be able to fly commercial planes because he was passionate about it? No, it would not have been safe. People need to have realistic expectations of the sort of certifications they can acquire given their mental and physical abilities/disabilities at whatever stage of life they are at. Do I advocate taking away a black belt's certification if they can no longer perform as they once did? Not exactly. I think a distinction should be made between those who have received a black belt at some point and those whose certification is current. Those with current certification would be able to teach for their particular organization and serve as judges at tournaments. A wheelchair-bound person should have no expectation to excel at, let alone receive a black belt in the martial arts in the first place. It amazes me sometimes at how insidious and pervasive political correctness has become to our thinking that privileges have become rights, and everyone's a winner. Wake up and smell your over-priced coffee, people. I stopped participating in tournaments when they started gerrymandering divisions so that there wouldn't be more than three people in each one and everyone would receive a medal (multiple bronzes would be handed out when there were four or more participants). No, there is no point in winning when everyone's a winner.
The way I see it, GM Timmerman has three arts: kuk sool, kuk sool hap ki do, and kong shin bup. They all have the same curriculum and the same requirements, but kong shin bup has more intense fitness requirements and breaking requirements. The other two might adapt better to an example like yours, Xanth. AFAIK they have the exact same curriculum aside from the rather different testing procedures.
Actually, L-X, I'd rather keep it surreal if you don't mind. :jester: And while you're trying to unbunch your panties, get a grip, will ya? I don't think anyone is trying to make exceptions or excuses for the physically handicapped, but as long as someone is still sharp-witted (i.e. not fallen prey to the likes of Alzheimer's) then why couldn't they serve as judges on a testing panel or in a tournament? When judging, one's physical skill is not what's important IMO, but rather one's ability to asses the skill of others. Wouldn't you agree? But this is one of the reasons I think that certification isn't normally "taken away" from black belts as they age, as they can perform in such a capacity. Although I do have questions about merely promoting folks simply because they remain active in the organizational aspects, despite not keeping themselves physically fit enough to warrant such upping in rank (this is my main objection/rant/pet peeve/etc.). Feel free to impart your feelings (a general plea to whomever wants to respond), given the perspective I presented. And speaking of handicapped black belts, what is everyone's opinion about the guy who runs this website?: www.certainvictory.com
I have to agree with UKJN here; just because someone can't physically do something doesn't mean they can't teach it or assess it. As for that example, I consider Master Ott a wonderful martial artist and he's remarkably capable.
I would like to make an observation, many times on here you see people posting about mcdojos and standards and quality control but someone actually has a standard and its pretty high and it seems like people are critical of it. I asked about ssangkall's post about the the wheelchair not to get sidetracked into a talk about disability but about why isn't having a standard a good thing. Nobody forces anyone to join or stay in any of these ma organizations and for myself personally I truly believe it is between a student, instructor, and grandmaster who gets promoted and who doesn't. Just like a person is free to seek instruction elsewhere if an organization isn't meeting thier needs. I like being in the wksa, many people don't like that organization for one reason or another but it meets my needs and my goals so there I stay. But that is my choice, and my choice to abide by my organizations standards and rules, just saying....congratulations kiwest
Nope. It just means that he wants to maintain the goals set by his former GM from whom he inherited the art. Yes. You are, but that's an easy mistake to make. We all tend to read what we THINK the other person is saying, but it ain't always so, and we don't always have the time or inclination to put it right. lol I hold ALL the arts taught within NKMAA in high regard as I do all other MAs. They are not all what I would want to do, but they all have their merits and otherwise. Hope you get them. They are great!
Thanks Kiwi, Let us know how you make out on your next attempt. I think that for me the "something for everyone" approach that the NKMAA is doing is great! If everyone can maintain humility and not compare one another, but continue their personal excellence would be, IMO the best result as a MAist.
Just asking out of curiosity, is Grandmaster Timmerman able to do all these things he is failing people at with HiS injured back and all? I rwmember him not being able to performat all the kuk sool demos because of his injured back. Not trying to be ugly or argumentative, just wondering how one can expect so much from a student and pass or fail someone if they can't perform it themselves. I would NEVER ask a student to do something tjat I could not do myself. Stealing a quote from my teacher, when I ask a student to perform something, I am the first into postion and the last one out. Anyway, just wondering if the judges and leaders lead you on these vigorous tests themselves? I do however agree a martial artist ought to be in tip top shape. They should ne some of the fittest athletes in the world, so I certainly applaud those that try to maintain this, but I don't expect a srudent to perform something their leaders cannot.
Excuse me, karma, how old are you again? I ask not because I thought you were being childish in making such a statement, but because you seem to ignore the fact that the older one gets, the less likely they will be able to perform at the same intensity as in their youth. Now I think it's great that people like Marlin Sims, Larry White, Soon Tae Yang, In Sun Seo, etc. are able to conduct themselves with vigor, stamina, and other signs that their physical prowess is not diminishing in the least. But once someone reaches what most would consider "advanced years" then I feel as if all bets are off. Unfortunately, the human body isn't made to last forever and due to lifestyle as well as heredity, some may not fare as well as others when it comes to aging. So once YOU have succumbed to the ravages of arthritis and/or other debilitating, age-related ailments, I'd like to know if your POV has changed any. :bow1:
Unknown: My point about being permitted to serve as a teacher in one's organization or as a judge at a tournament is that, in order to maintain quality control and standardized judgement, a black belt needs to be kept current. If I were a TKD participant in a tournament, I would not be thrilled to find out that one or more of the judges had been out of it so long that they had forgotten all of the poomse that they were judging me on, or were not aware of the current sparring rules. Likewise, within a school setting, you can't have black belts who are returning after a long hiatus in their training, correcting other student's forms and techniques, when they may have either forgotten certain details, or just not been made aware of any changes to the curriculum (a master's understanding of an art can change over the years, and they don't usually acknowledge this, they just teach differently over time.)
1) nearing 50. 2) thought i made it plain that i wasn't trying to be rude. I just wantes to know if these wonderful martial artists were able to perform their own curriculum. If you wish to aake a claim that I am being childish in askinf an earnest question then that is tour perrogrative. But I surely do not think i would have near thw respect forr someone such as Mastet Sims and others you menntioned couldn't do the material. They were just talkinf about how people in this system couldo nor get a blacl belt if they couldn't perform the material, however the founder can't yet claims his grandmaster status? They have a word for that, in, I just had a question abouthis elder stidents not being able to do it and fail and can't get promoted because some 50 yr. old can't run a 5 min. whatever but the leaders can't either.
Absolutely Karma, and I think that no one should judge things like High Board Diving, Figure Skating, Gymnastics, etc., unless they can damn well get up there and do it themselves - even when they're 70 and their joints have started to seize up and/or wear out!
Sorry for the mix-up, karma, and for mentioning ANYTHING to do with "childish" as I was merely trying to make it perfectly clear that I DIDN'T mean to imply such a thing when asking how old you were. It's sorta like Pugil said (in post #79), I don't think that people lauded Bela Karolyi's coaching abilities because HE was capable of doing such phenomenal gymnastics, but merely capable of helping true stars realize THEIR potential. And I get the whole concept of honor & respect being given to people who LIVE what they preach. OTOH, please understand that I was merely trying to suggest that despite living a wholesome & healthy lifestyle, that age CAN take its toll on an individual if they aren't blessed with the right genes. And as far as I can tell, while not being "rude" per se, when taking all the *extra* info you padded around your query, it casts an underlying tone that says otherwise. But I understand what you're getting at, and perhaps I can explain it for you... AFAIK, Saja never claimed to have any certain rank in KSB, but is merely the "inheritor" of this particular art (it was passed to him from his instructor, I believe when his instructor was looking to go in a different direction - someone correct me if I got this wrong). Saja also happens to align his group with HMJ/HKD in order to provide sanctioned certificates to his students, and if not mistaken, it was In Sun Seo who bestowed the 9th dan upon him simply because Saja heads up his own MA organization. But I have also heard Saja say that he doesn't regard this rank as anything but honorary. If the testing requirements that were established by the FOUNDER of KSB were designed to apply more to a person in their prime, and doesn't include alternate requirements for a class of aging members (remember that very few older folk were involved in MA when it was founded), then if Saja, as the inheritor of this art, chooses not to ADD such things into the curriculum, then it's HIS choice to make. Besides, it sounds as if someone who can't cut it according to the guidelines of KSB, always has the option of learning and testing for the same material without such harsh PT/PF requirements, by simply getting ranked in KS/HKD instead. :dunno: As I mentioned previously, if I could run a mile in less than 6 minutes when I was 20 years old, then you can't say I don't deserve to be included in such a club that honors people who are capable of this feat, just because I have turned 70 and would be lucky to run it in less than 8 minutes (LOL). If instead, this fictitious club only honored folks that are CURRENTLY capable of doing it, then that's a different matter, but my point is that if honoring people who HAVE done it, regardless of when, then it doesn't make any difference if they later LOSE this ability. Once rank in the MA is mandated in such a way that REcertification at certain intervals is necessary to keep your status, then I will bow down to those who feel that black belts are somehow obliged to maintain their physical prowess at some undetermined peak, but not until then. :hail:
