Liverpool KSW Tournament

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by JamesR, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    The problem is that once the person executing the throw has broken the balance of the other, and is in a position to throw them, then it's too late to contemplate a counter. You can only hope to land as best you can, and limit the damage to yourself as much as possible.

    The time to counter the attempted throw is to act as early as possible. If it were in a real life situation, once someone turns into you and gives you their back, their is always the possibility to use your free hand to punch the spine or kidney, pull back on the face, and then possibly choke.

    But if your other arm is being twisted, or the elbow of that arm is being hyper-extended, and your balance has already been broken (which it should have been if the thrower is in any way skilled), then you may still find yourself airborne!

    Here's the fantastic Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki in action: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLggCk7ylE8"]Ippon seoi nage defense and counter by Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki sensei - YouTube[/ame]
     
  2. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Another fun counter to try: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cOepYLqFBU"]Back-arch counter to hip toss - Reilly Bodycomb Sambo Seminar 4/3/2010: - YouTube[/ame]
     
  3. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    :topic: OFF-TOPIC :topic:


    Which is why the first few bang-tugi techniques are meant to keep the other person from getting in close enough to disrupt your balance. The only problem is that the way they work, is primarily against a *standard* judo hip throw and IMO, they aren't particularly effective against much else. As mentioned earlier, I do like the principles depicted in some of the latter techniques from the set, as they are more far-reaching than merely as judo counters. If someone grabs your arm and executes a joint-lock, as opposed to simply grabbing clothes or body parts in order to pull you over their back [or shoulder], then pushing on them, to keep them from getting in too close to your center-of-gravity, is insufficient when it comes to countering their intent of throwing you through the air.


    Great videos, BTW. :cool:

    The first one picks up on something I didn't bother to elaborate on fully. When I say to "counter with acrobatics" I'm sure what comes to mind is adding your own energy & rotation when thrown so that you can [escape the joint-lock and] land on your feet (e.g. just look at kung-fu movies, where the uninitiated land on their back groaning when thrown and the adept do 3 summersaults and land lightly on their feet - LOL). But acrobatics give you the ability to not be so *disoriented* when flipping about through the air (the exact same skill needs to be learned by gymnasts, trampolinists, high divers, ice skaters, etc. - and while I'm at it, let's not forget to add parkour practioners to the list, hehe). This type of knowledge, which can only be learned via experience, can enable you to figure out how to *manipulate* the combined balance of you AND your adversary, should s/he succeed in lifting you off the ground for a throw (very similar to what your first linked video portrayed with Kashiwazaki sensei). Another good example of this concept, can be illustrated with a common Strength vs Weakness battle, often seen used against women (where a brute picks her up off the ground from behind using a 'bear-hug'). Hanging there flailing her legs about frantically is the "usual" response, whereas lifting the legs and tucking the knees in close to the shoulders while arching the back as if to look skyward, will force the *brute* to readjust the combined weight of himself & his victim slightly forwards (if not, then he'll topple backwards), and it's at this moment that the woman should thrust her feet downward and bend forward in order to touch down to the ground (and once *grounded* then there are more options, leverage-wise, to escape the hold). Most people wouldn't think of the example I just mentioned as being related to acrobatics, but it's the manipulation of the combined balance of two people which does connect it to this principle, IMO (consider the OPPOSITE, where two or more circus performers have to adjust their weight so that their COMBINED balance doesn't cause them to topple over, and you can see why acrobatics is definitely involved).


    I also like the sambo/cambo video, even though the technique shown is designed to take the fight to the ground. If only sitting (i.e. crouching/squatting), then that should be enough to thwart the hip throw and then you could do stand up grappling in order to turn the tables... no need to go to the ground at all (unless you WANT to). ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  4. LURKER-X

    LURKER-X Valued Member

    It's a shame to hear that Master Sung Jun Suh might no longer perform at demonstrations. I have always enjoyed watching his forms. I did find it odd that he did Oon Hak Hyung and his Fast Hands Form back to back. Usually he does one or the other. Perhaps because he intended it to be his last? Any confirmation of this?
     
  5. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    why would a guy as young as himself stop demoing? my teacher is 65 and still breaks whiskey bottles, demos un hak hyeong, and does hoshinsul(po bak, bu chae, ji pang i) 4 times a year. ah well
     
  6. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"


    That's an extreme test Kiwi, is that a typical BB test? And is it for all ranks of BB? Also if you don't mind my asking what part of the test did you fail? Thanks
     
  7. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Double post
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  8. Xanth

    Xanth Valued Member

    I'm wondering, as much as I like to see grueling physical tests of stamina and stength where one has to push themselves further than they ever thought they could... what does that have to do with a Black Belt? You are learning an art, you should be tested on that art. The ability to run 5k, 10k, etc proves you are aerobically fit and have no issues with your feet/legs/back etc... but where does that put a guy like me, who after 2 tarsal tunnel surgeries and numerous years of physical therapy can sometimes only barely manage to walk 1/2 a k let alone run one. Am I judged then, in your art, to not be worthy of a black belt? That's more of a rhetorical question, as I'm assuming I wouldn't be... which begs the question again, why test to those extremes if they don't have that much bearing on the outcome.
     
  9. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    xanth, im pretty sure each person has an individual journey they have to go through to reach the milestones pf yudanja, sabeom, and kwanjang. i also bet that the headmaster testing you would find a way for you to reach any of those levels while preserving the feeling of accomplishment.
     
  10. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    You asking me?

    That's not how I read it, are you just speculating or do you know for sure?
     
  11. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    lol, i was trying to sound positive sir. sounds like its rougher up north. but tell me this, how would a person in a wheelchair get a ksb bbelt? no 10k, no bbelt? i dont think so
     
  12. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    Ssangkall, now that's a loaded question, lol. While I fully believe and respect every person's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...I don't think that someone deserves to recieve something just becuase someone else does. If earning a black belt means meeting certain requirements,, are you saying someone shouldnt have to becuase they are in a wheelchair?
     
  13. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    double post
     
  14. kuksoolchris

    kuksoolchris New Member

    Yeah I went to the Liverpool tournament, was a pretty good event as well! Although the sparring rules are really getting on my wick now, under blackbelt any face contact gets you a warning!
    Yeah I thought I heard Master Jung Jin say it was his last performance at demo although if pretty sure he'll perform at European or World tournaments! I have his two forms on camera as well so I'll try and upload it when I get time. Did anybody watch the DBN test/grade????
     
  15. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Again...your asking me? I guess we may never know as Kiwi seems to be busy getting ready for the next test and doesn't have time to respond to the questions. I guess we'll just have to keep practicing our mediocre art till he has time to explain how doing sit ups with logs makes one a better MAist.
     
  16. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    individual requirements

    yessir, because the kicking portions of the syllabus would not be a possibility(eg maek chagi, jok bang uh sul, basic kicking, jump kicking). pins wouldn't be possible! 'shouldn't' is more like 'couldn't' in these types of situations. there is no reason why a teacher couldn't come up with a test for the physically and/or comprimised.

    the way i see it elliot is that even in the worst case scenario, the teacher should look in the mirror and ask if they can do the test themselves. this may change the way they think about rigid testing requirements.
     
  17. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Maybe someone in a wheelchair could not achieve black belt, in the same way that they also might not be able to achieve an award for high-board diving - unless of course they are Matt Lucas!
     
  18. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    At what age should someone hand their black belt and their certificates back, because they can no longer do what they once could?
     
  19. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i dont think that a traditionally themed martial art should ask a person give up rank for anything but dishonorable behavior. think about it sir, tournaments and demos are for the capable. teaching, putting together a tournament, and facilitating testing are part of what a traditionally themed martial art does. there is something everybody can do to develope and spread the art.
     
  20. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Sorry about the quality, the version in German is visually better, but no good for English-speaking viewers: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC6TL60lfH4"]lou and andy - swimming pool - YouTube[/ame]
     

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